Is Sam Winchester The Real Big Bad?
Saturday, 04 December 2010 13:12 | Last Updated on Saturday, 04 December 2010 13:43 | Written by Alice Jester | 
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Last night’s episode “Caged Heat” revealed that Crowley was not the big bad after all. He was really more of a used car salesman, all talk and no substance. The fact that he was personally doing the torturing hints that he was doing the bidding of someone else. The King of Hell is upper management, he wouldn't be getting his hands dirty. So, if Crowley isn’t the big bad, than who is? Thanks to some brilliant thinking during our discussions on the episode (Jeannie gets the gold star), the answer to me now couldn’t be more obvious. This answer clears up any inconsistency issues I have had with season six. So who is the big bad?
Sam Winchester.
Just think about it! I know, that probably makes hearts sink more, for many are hoping for Dean and Sam to be together again fighting evil, but let’s look at the evidence.
Sam wouldn’t allow Crowley to be killed in “Weekend at Bobby’s.” What if Crowley was working for him all along? Was Crowley able to spring Sam from the cage because Lucifer and/or Michael have a new Plan B? Since Sam could leave the cage and they couldn’t, why not tap him to run the show (and thus carry out their wishes). It would make sense he would come out soulless. The human soul has a way of impeding plans of evil.
Sam killed Meg’s minion quickly and easily and Meg didn’t protest or retaliate. She gave Sam a look like “whatever you say boss.” That is a clear cut hint who’s really calling the shots. I think Sam and Meg arranged this whole adventure which is why she went to easy on Sam but threatened Dean.
The way he had Castiel get rid of the prison full of monsters. You think that was Sam really covering his tracks?
Sam’s character in “Caged Heat” came across as a grand schemer rather than someone who’s on a quest for his soul. There was just something more to it. The characterization wasn’t consistent, so could it be they’re raising doubt over Sam’s true intentions. Either that or it’s some really choppy writing. He’s actually been scheming all season and it makes you wonder what he was actually doing that year he wasn’t with Dean. There’s probably more to come on that, maybe. In “Clap Your Hands If You Believe” it was my belief that Sam was playing with Dean about the soulless stuff.
Something has been bugging me all season, and “Caged Heat” really sealed the deal for me. What happened to Sam’s powers? He's always had them, even when not drinking demon blood. We learned from “Death Takes A Holiday” that his powers come from his body not his soul. It was eluded to by Castiel that the amount of demon blood Sam would have to drink to kill Lilith (and handle Lucifer) would change him forever. You think that we haven’t seen him use his demon powers just because TPTB aren’t ready to pull that trigger? That he really does have them and has been using them but he can’t use them in front of Dean or Samuel otherwise he’ll risk giving up what he’s really up to? I can’t believe that Sam after all that happened would be left without demon powers.
The ten second promo that’s on the our front page, not to mention this seasons promotional poster of Dean with a halo and Sam with a snake. It certainly hints that Sam is the one running Hell, doesn’t it?
I could go on and on (and maybe I will in comments once more clues become apparent) but it seems to me that Sam is pulling one very calculated con, exactly the way Ruby did in seasons three and four. What do you think? Is this just another trick the writers are using to raise doubt or am I onto something here? Do you like the idea of Sam being the big bad? Do you think we’re being setup for a Dean having to save Sam or kill him scenario again?
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Comments
I would rather Cas be the bad guy then Sammy.
All of it, all the pain and suffering and sacrifice and struggle and damnation, all of that hope, only to then realise it didn't make a damn bit of difference, it was all for nothing. It just means Sam is as doomed now as he was the moment he jumped in the Pit, the moment he said yes to Lucifer, the moment he met Ruby or even the moment Mary made the deal that sold him out.
What happened to making your own destiny, choosing your own path? Would Sam have been better off just killing Jake, accepting his destiny early on?
If Sam is the big bad, who ends up happy at the end of it all? No-one. Sam was Lucifer, for fuck sake. LUCIFER!! It doesn't get much bigger and badder than that and Sam fought, and won, against him.
To take all that back, to belittle everything Sam did and everything he is.... No, just no.
I can't believe it. I was looking forward to a week of happy thoughts after the awesomeness of the last episode and now, in a matter of minutes I'm twenty times lower than I was after Twihard (and I was pretty damn low then.)
Regardless of what this soulless Sam is up to, I do firmly believe that at the end our Sammy and our Dean will be back together again!
And maybe I'm just confused and wrong, but if this Sam is the big bad and running hell, that doesn't mean he's our Sam. Dean's Sam. He's still missing his Sammysoul, which would mean that all that sacrificing wasn't accomplished by the guy we've been looking at. That's just his memory shell.
Which leads to my confusion over how the show is handling the soul situation. I'm honestly lost and would love a bit of enlightenment from any willing (heh) soul.
As far as I could tell, when people die in SPN, their soul goes elsewhere. They are still tied to their physical remains, but THEY go, leaving behind a meat suit. When Dean died, his body was buried while his soul was in hell. He was put back in his body. John's soul walked through the hellgate, not his body. Which led me to believe that Samsoul is what is in hell. This thing walking around REALLY isn't Sam. Nothing to do with him except the memory and body. The physical body is not involved after death. It was special circumstances that led to the physical Sam being in the pit with SoulSam.
So I'm confused as to why Cass would worry over ruining this Sam since I thought the real Sam was in the pit. Who cares what happens to BodySam? I don't. I mean, I want him well for when SoulSam returns, but other than that, he doesn't own any of my affection. I don't get it and feel thick, since either I missed something or the continuity of the show did a hiccup.
Anyway, with that in my mind, I can accept this Sam as the Big Bad since he isn't SoulSam. It's hard for me to swallow how long it's taking to get Sammy back, but I love the show. I'm hanging on...but I'm still confused and hope it'll soon be laid out for me in small words and big, block letters.
You maybe right…this could be the whole lead up for this season.
To Supernaturalize the Kane and Able story.
To finally pit one brother against the other. A fight between good and evil.
And to all those on board with this …all the power to you.
However for me, if this is the new direction of the show then lost it’s magic for me. As far as I’m concern the show had it’s Series Finale with Season 5’s Swan Song, and I will cherish those 5 years.
And as for season 6, I will consider it to be one long bad dream.
Corny as it may be, the whole basis of this show has been for me the brother’s relationship, their bond, their undying love and devotion to each other.
And without it, there is no heart, no soul, no essence, no show.
The new poster Promo's show Dean as angelic and Sam as demonic and had the caption "All Evil will See the Light" what if Dean is the light? He's changed, he's still drinking but he's not out sleeping with everyone woman and he's more concerned about people than he was before.
Sam on the other hand does not want his soul back, and next epi he's going to go overboard to make sure he doesn't get it back by attacking Bobby since he must have gotten Dean killed or some such thing (he needs family blood to seal the spell to keep his soul out of his body thanks to Balthazar).
So, does this make sense yes it does.
Also I want to point that didn't, during some part of the episode, Meg look back at Sam and say something to the tune "You'll make sure I come back right?" Was she directly asking her new "Boss" to bring her back from hell?
I can handle Evil Sam, Jared is just deliciously wicked when it comes to channeling smexy evilness, but how this will work with the brothers I don't know. I know Sera said that we will new relationship with the brothers for a while before we get on with getting Sam's soul back. This is interesting to put it mildly.
Kudos SPN Crew - Cliff hangers are SO your forte!
And of course, as I still am in mourning for the Dodge Charger I am continuing it honor of Mark Sheppard - may his character rot in hell but his performance live on!
VIVA LA CROWLEY!!!
Also, this show has always toyed with the idea of Sam as the Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader character. So, maybe now he's Darth Vader. The question is, can Dean bring him back from the dark side, just like Luke did with Anakin? I say yes.
But hey, I'm willing to take bets that next week will offer a new twist that blows all this out of the water. This season doesn't seem to be following a straight path at all.
And that is the big disappointment in this season for me. No matter how good or well acted or produced this season has been so far (and it has been exceptional) I am not happy at all regarding the brotherly relationship. That, to me, is the heart and soul of this show and with that missing, it is just another drama and not my beloved Supernatural. And that is why I also agree with Karen.
No heart, no soul, no essence, no show.
I can never give up watching as I love Dean to distraction and will not quit hoping that all will be well with the boys sooner than later.
How many times will Sam have to go to the well of manipulation before he realises he can’t come back? He’s been there so many times before; YED, blood, demon army, powers, Lucifer. At what stage will he drown in the well?
How many times will Dean have to fight to pull his brother back before he realises he no longer can, or should? What’s Dean’s breaking point in relation to his brother? He’s not too keen on Sam at the moment and Sam is only sans soul. How will he react if it pans out that not only is Sam sans soul, but is now his official nemesis? How many times will Dean have to face the 'save him or kill him' conundrum?
Is Dean (or are we, the viewers) altruistic enough to be able to say ‘It’s okay Sam; I know it wasn’t really you?
Sam as the antagonist worked in the past because he was shown in glorious shades of grey. By setting him up as the new big bad, it will put him on the same level as YED, Lilith, Crowley and Lucifer and that’s jet black. How long before viewers no longer accept (or tolerate) the no-soul excuse and start thinking ‘Y’know, maybe this is what Sam really is’.
Personally, I’ve no interest in following a character who always needs to be forgiven for his transgressions, neither have I interest in a character who does nothing but forgive because I feel it makes cardboard cutouts of them both. I’m interested in journeys, in cycles, in the knowledge that where there’s a downhill there’s an uphill and the view at the top of the hill is spectacular. Unfortunately, this uphill is getting to be so steep that if it goes on for much longer, for my weak legs; it’s going to be insurmountable.
Ok, it seems I’ve two feet firmly in moaning territory at the moment, something I swore I’d never do again after the Twihard breakdown. I’m going to go to bed and say 5 million prayers to a God I’m sure has better things to worry about, that this doesn’t pan out.
I don't know yet how to feel about it. I am certain, however, that Jared Padalecki will enjoy this twists in Sam's journey. He's said countless times that he loves playing this and how excited he is about it. So, I'm quite happy for the man and am so proud of what he does here. Marvellous work of a young, very talented actor.
I like ambiguous characters. But I miss the soulful Sammy, I do, and how much.
If he does turn out to be the big baddie of this season, well, I hope they stick to the initial comparison Kripke told us about (Sam being Luke Skywalker, Dean Han Solo) - meaning that Sam might be tempted by the dark side, but not entirely give in.
But that's just me. On the other hand - it might well be that this option could be the most healthy one. Getting a soul back as twisted and in agony as we've been warned about might just about kill anyone. The thought alone freaks me out.
there has been that mini-trailer, more like a jingle, of Dean being topside surrounded by blue-ish, clear light and Sam being downside, envelopped in flames. Well, both have kind of been alpha and omega all the time, haven't they? It does hold some logic, though it's quite painful to this SamGirl.
Cheers everyone, Jas
The theory makes many good points and if it is the case, I'll be saying farewell.
And for me, Soulless Sam being the big bad won't matter. The show has constantly and consistently refused to show why Sam has made the decisions he has made. There is a Sam backlash in fandom that is strong and vocal. If Sam in any form becomes the real big bad, then the character becomes unsalvageable. I really, really hope your guess is wrong. Sam and his character have been trashed for too many seasons for me to enjoy that.
You're here championing making Sam totally completely irredeemable. Elle is championing not letting us know how much Sam has suffered in Hell because it will take away from Dean. YEESH! If that is all this comes to then just kill off Sam and be done with it.
BTW, I think Samuel may get Mary out and her experiences will turn HER into the big bad.
Maybe they are using Dean as leverage of some kind. Would Sam give up his soul to become the new big bad to protect his brother? Ummmmmm.
I do see the evidence, the small hints, if they were hints, the promo picture which could, but need not be a hint, etc. Things may indeed be heading in that direction, or they may not.
I still don´t like the idea at all. While I do enjoy good vs. evil scenarios in general, the exploration, the epic questions, I am growing really tired of the underlying assumption that Sam should be more evil than Dean. I don´t see people that way at all, as being good or evil, and I dislike the idea very profoundly. If this is really what they are doing, then they are heading towards a black/white scenario, which I would truly hate. Ideas may be black/white, good/evil, but people are not, and, Soulless or not, I do not want EvilSam rescued or rather saved by GoodDean. What an awful idea.
And I´m very much with Tim the Enchanter on this: What a terrible way to diminish Sam´s sacrifice, another act full of good intentions blowing up in his face.
It would be the ultimate: Face it you´re evil, no matter what you do, it´ll always come to that, all your decisions will lead you there. Team Free Will, anyone? What would be the point?
And as I said, I hate the idea that Dean would have to be Sam´s redemption, and that he is somehow a better person. He is not, they are both flawed, equally flawed - albeit in different ways - and equally lovable.
Besides I don´t really understand the idea behind it. What would Sam´s intention be, what´s his masterplan? How can he even have a plan to pursue? Wouldn´t he have to have a deeply felt wish, something he wants coming true? How could that happen without a soul?
And why would being soulless make him evil? You´d have to have a soul to be evil, to be corrupted. What´s there to corrupt if you haven´t a soul? Sam at the moment is a highly intelligent animal, to put it bluntly. That has its charms and its setbacks, heavy setbacks, granted, but it does not make him evil. He´s more like a tiger with intelligence and consciousness than like a demon. Tigers follow their instincts, and their instincts could kill you, so beware. They still aren´t evil.
Demons have souls, and they have feelings, only they´ve been profoundly corrupted. So if they are what we would call evil, how does Sam fit in?
He doesn´t. He is not good or evil, he isn´t both, as would be human nature, he is neither, he is neutral, completely neutral - or at least that´s what he should be, given this setup.
After this week´s episode I have no idea where this season is heading, but I sincerely hope it´s not going down the EvilSam road.
My theory from the off was that Raphael is prime mover behind all of these seemingly unconnected goings on. Of any presented "bad guys" so far, he makes the most sense to be at the center of it.
Regardless, I have HUGE problems that everything being said about Sam and his soul point to mucking about with the cage. A cage the writers spent two whole seasons forcing down our throat that is unmuckable. Season 5 ends and they decide the thing's a 7-11? So many issues, not the least of which is this breaks the whole mythology. Crowley, who could be killed/harmed with Ruby's knife while Alistair and LIllith could not, can poke about in the thing and extract Sam? That makes no sort of sense. At all. Not to mention this entire thing seemingly erases the final moment of Swan Song. The light bulb flickered out, and I haven't seen not!Sam have that effect on any other electricity.
So, I have to believe the writers are not going to commit such crimes against the world they lovingly created. Someone far higher up the food chain sprung Sam from the cage, planted him in front of Dean. Raphael corners Sam up and tells him "I will kill your brother and his happy little family if you don't agree to sell me your soul." Sam agrees, and Raphael erases his memory and dumps him, soulless, in a field.
Why do I like this theory. Raphael can't kill Sam or Dean. He needs the vessels. But he damn sure doesn't need them mucking about in his wars. Dean stays oblivious in his domesticity, and Sam has no soul, no moral compass and no compulsion to interfere. It also ties in the whole angels buying souls bit.
That's my theory, and I hope to heaven I'm right. Time will tell.
I agree Sam going down the dark road only to realize his mistake and trying to redeem himself afterwards, is a road already traveled. I hope the new writers at SPN aren't just rehashing ideas already explored when Kripke was at the helm.
However, the thought that SoulessSam is essentially a sort of a meatsuit/puppet to be manipulated by Lucifer or Michael or both... that's a new spin. I'd be down for that.
Except. I thought the show was getting away from the Lucifer and Christian mythos a little. And I don't think Michael resorting to such low measures is in his character. Granted the show has a new and different (they are dicks) take on the angels, but something about Michael resorting to tormenting a human soul, or adapting tactics like Lucifer does not seem believable to me.
So RoboSam as the Big Bad? Let's have it, IF they can do it right. And if still they preserve the growth and strength the Winchester brothers have developed in the last 5 seasons. I need continuity above all else at this point. I want my show to stay true to itself, even as it grows and explores.
I'm extremely loyal to Supernatural and its characters, and it is precisely because of it that I can not watch the show anymore if Sam becomes the big bad, because I'm loyal to Sam's character and to see him become the archenemy of the season, I can't. I just can't. To make things worse, the "Big Bad Theory" makes sense.
I'm praying to God that this is not the case here, because even though I'm not really an enthusiast of Swan Song, it is proving to be a much better place of the story than the current place is.
Ruby referenced his ‘gentle nature.’ While Dean is nowhere near as tough as he would like much of the world to think (and don’t we love the soft side inside the hardened hunter shell?), Sam has always been the bleeding heart of the duo. Sam also had Dean promise to kill him if he turned ‘darkside’ because that transformation was so abhorrent to him. He succumbed to addiction and demonic manipulation in an attempt to stave off the ‘destiny’ he found repulsive, and ultimately gave his life to atone for the sin of freeing Lucifer.
I’m enjoying soulless Sam because, in essence, it’s not the real Sam. It’s an avatar minus the driver. Sure, it’s got Sam’s memories and skills but it doesn’t have his heart. And, as misguided – and, yes, disastrous – as some of Sam’s actions have been in the past, it was often because he was led by his heart not his head.
There’s obviously more going on with Sam that has been revealed to us so far, but count me among those who don’t want him to be a willing participant in any nefarious plot.
In the end, I'm willing to go with the writers on a risk. I love Sam and I miss Sam. What we have here is not Sam and I'm okay with that for now.
I’d prefer to think that RoboSam is really not our Sam at all, and we, like Dean, have not seen the real Sam yet this season. Show is playing a very arrogant game if they think longtime fans of the Show will accept not seeing the real Sam for an entire season though.
RoboSam has been very entertaining, because RoboSam is so unpredictable. I don't give a crap about RoboSam as a character though. I’m not really interested in some drawn out re-souling quest by Dean either. There's only one person who wants Sammy w/Soul back right now, and it's Dean. Yet again, we're spinning on the 'Dean's job is to save Sam' carousel.
So while I don’t like this idea that RoboSam is the big bad, I can see how you have drawn that conclusion. But I have no idea what goal RoboSam would have, and why he pulled Dean back into his life after a year doing his RoboSam activities. Maybe RoboSam's motivation is that he's a pawn in a game between Michael and Lucifer that actually requires some action by Dean? I hope that’s not where things are headed. I've been willing to wait on season 6 thus far, but after last week and this week, I can’t tell where things are going; or that I actually care, which is the more disappointing aspect about season 6.
I have been frustrated all season! Nothing is making any sense! Ruby said at least 2 times "No demon has the power to free someone out of Hell" let alone Heaven! And Castiel is too preoccupied with the "war in Heaven" to give it much thought. And what is it with a WAR in heaven? Heaven is a place of Peace I thought? So With Michael being the "head" Angel of the Lord, in "Hell" - supposedly he is in Hell, - but that's another thing, the Head Arch Angel of the Lord is the Warrior Angel doing God's waring so he has God's POWER which is "the" most POWER of POWERS, so He easily after escorting satan back to Hell where he belongs, would "simply" just come back out back up to Heaven. I mean God wouldn't let Michael who wasn't choosing his own will, but God His Father's Will, stay in Hell, which He created for all those who don't believe in HIM, which Michael DID believe in his Father-God, right? I can't see Michael "scheming with satan" ....unless....he's tricking satan to believe he is scheming with him, and "releasing" Sam back to Earth to "do their scheming" for them....hummm... Just thinking out loud.
But then Sam is without his Soul, He should be the Stoic of Stoics- complete free from any emotion, right? so if he is showing any emotion is it he's "acting as if" to play his role for Dean's sake? But back to him being soulless, Does that means he's basically an empty host body moving mechanically? Not really.
The Soul is made up of one's emotions, feelings, and thinking, which leaves the "body" and the... Spirit. (The Human is made up of 3 parts- SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY) So We have the Body of Sam, WITH who's Spirit in him?? Did somehow satan throw in his "right hand man" in Hell? and it's not Crowley! Obviously. (I will miss Mr Shepard- but I get to still see him on Leverage!) Now- just thinking back to the "Apocalypse" theme of the past few seasons which 1&2 geared up to, in the old testament and new testaments, (which BTW, SPEAKS NOTHING of "PURGATORY"- that's thrown into the "Catholic version" of the Bible- but it totally doesn't fit into either old or new testaments, being they speak ONLY of Heaven and Hell. (There is what is called "Abraham's Bosom" (Wikipedia-"Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol-hades where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited for Judgment Day. The phrase "Bosom of Abraham" occurs in the Bible only in the New Testament in Luke 16:22-23 in Jesus' story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, where Lazarus was there and across the "valley" was Hell, and they could see those of each other each side, but described in the old testament) But according to the New Testament, when Jesus died on the cross, he said to the one man on the other cross, you will be with me in Paradise...and is says that those who were dead in God rose to Heaven when the Temple's curtain where no common man can go past ripped from bottom to top- a picture that any common man can now speak directly to God without having to go to a priest. So that sounds like now, there is no more Abraham's Bosom left. (ugh- that's a lot to get out, I don't know if you are following me, but er, there is no Purgatory! Ugh! phoo!
So this Purgatory could be a WILD GOOSE CHASE! Demons are of Hell, Angels are of Heaven. Vampires are empty bodies of no Spirit in them because the "human" is dead. So we have just a body with an "evil spirit" in it which is a "distorted" duplicate work of satan for his realm/cause to kill and distort and destroy anything of God. (satan destroys any of God's creation or copy cats- to confuse humans-which this season is greatly doing!!) lol!
Forgive me- back to the "Apocalypse", in the new testament in Revelations, it speaks of the "Antichrist" and "his righthand man- the "Prophet", are to "scheme together to take over the world. But in the end, when God/Savior comes, God throws them both in the Lake of Fire for 1000 years. Then releases Him again to see if he could tempt the people of that time, (because 1000 years of peace but there's the issue of FREE WILL, God wants people to Freely choose Him, and if there are any who choose satan, they along with satan will be destroyed forever.
So MAYBE is to be satan's helper somehow? And fool people - just how did that happen exactly?
Grandpa being pulled out of Heaven can only be done by God. God can bring people back to life(I don't know about 29 years later though! lol) And somehow he is being tempted by "satan's helper" without really knowing (the things we do for the love of our family).
Gosh, I hope I don't sound all out there. lol! This is just a lot of stuff to think about with this season! And it's driving me nuts!
I MISS THE ROCK N ROLL! THE LAUGHS IN THE CAR! THE FUNNY JOKES-Sorry I didn't find it FUNNY AT ALL ABOUT HAVING GOD'S HOLY ANGEL WHO DOES GOD'S WORK SUPPOSEDLY, GETTING A "BONER" OR ENGAGING IN PORN PERIOD! THAT IS SICK AND OFFENSIVE. YES, he too has free will, but once he crosses over that line then he wouldn't be "the Head Angel" anymore.... hummmm maybe that's why he's having problems himself - he's falling?
And about Sam's demon powers, if he has an evil spirit in him, he should have some, but maybe not the same ones. That's why he's so extra strong now. And "knowing". How did he know Meg could "see" the hounds? She couldn't before. Only Lilith did right? Remember when they drove the demon out of Meg's body and her body was left crushed and broken. So Meg-the demon, went out but now she's back? I thought Ruby -demon Ruby, was to be the "best" demon besides Lilith? Even better at her job then Allister. But she was killed, Meg wasn't. so that's why she back?
So where's John then??
He left hell when the gates where opened. So why hasn't he been back to help his boys? Dean left Hell, and is "ok", why couldn't John be "ok"? Sam is different, due to the demon blood put in him as a six month old. But why could Castiel "cleanse" him of the "evil" is what I'd like to know?
Because the writers didn't write it! lol!
And what about Chuck? Is he writing all this or are they "on their own" now?
So many questions this season!
Just so much doesn't jive!
Bring me back the "boys"!! Please! I noticed it's SO DARK of a show now. No smiles. Notice that? It's sad. No smiles. We need the "trickster" back! haha! (another fallen angel-who is an "arch" angel. -out of God's covering)
Ok, my brain is spun out done! FEEDBACK PLEASE!
Its possible that Sam was working for Crowley all along, same as Samuel, but neither knew that the other was. And Sam is still Lucifer's meatsuit. Still protected for that reason.
First off, I'm with you on how you handled the whole Abraham's bosom and Christ on the cross with the thief and all. I do remember that this is Supernatural and they cherry pick from the Bible as well as every other myth, legend, and what have you to make their storylines so I don't get too worried about how wrong they get the Christian aspects of things...heck, throughout just about all of season 4 they had everyone from Bobby, to a priest to a doctor to anyone else that they could think of say 'the book of Revelations' instead of what it correctly is, the book of Revelation. It is only the Revelation of Jesus Christ. But I don't expect Kripke and Co. to get that right for they have pretty much all stated in one way or another that they're agnostic. That's not a criticism of them, it's simply how they look at things and they are not going for anything true to what it is in anything they write, from vampire lore to Buddhism to well, anything.
I'm 100% in agreement with you on why the whole Castiel watching porn and getting a boner bothered me. It was offensive to me. It was also completely 100% out of the character for this season. I wasn't offended when de-angeled and not five years into the future Castiel in The End was high on dope and having his orgies, but Castiel now is full-on angel again. He doesn't watch porn, he doesn't kiss girls and he doesn't get a boner. It was simply done for cheap laughs and I don't appreciate that kind of slap stick writing in an episode that is anything but slap stick.
I'm okay with the hell hounds because I believe demons can see them. We know Crowley saw his very own hell hound and Meg in Abandon All Hope clearly knew where the hell hounds she had with her were. Lilith saw them in No Rest For the Wicked so there is precedence there.
Some quirks I do wonder about (and this is off topic) but what did happen to the etchings Castiel put on Sam and Dean's ribs in Sympathy for the Devil. Those etchings were supposed to hid them from angels and demons yet now clearly angels and demons can find them without difficulty. (Perhaps in Castiel's case because he has his powers back and the boys are calling vocally for him he can 'hear' them that way and find them but what up with all the demons finding them without difficulty) It's a minor quirk that I assume we're supposed to believe (as some have suggested) that when Cas healed Dean at the end of Swan Song he removed the etchings and when Sam was released from hell he too was physically healed (for darn, there must have been some physical damage there) but an explainer would be nice.
Anyway, I for one find your comments excellent to read and easy to follow. Thanks for contributing to the thread.
Do I think Sam has been the big bad from the beginning here? No. It's more that I think he can become the big bad.
I think Crowley did somehow pull Sam from the cage. How? Who knows, we may never know at this point. What I think is that Sam has been waiting for this opportunity that came up Friday night. He knew that he couldn't take Crowley on alone, so he waited for another demon to step forward. He used Meg's desperation to get her to remove something that was impeding Sam's freedom. I think Meg recognized that and respected it. Remember there was a time that Meg was one of Azazel's and would have followed Sam if he had taken his rightful place. Sam as he is now is the king she would have willingly followed.
In the end, Crowley tried to make a pet out that tiger and got mauled for it. The thing is with this success and Sam's "decision" to walk away from his soul, what is his next logical step? Every time the Winchesters get rid of one big-bad demon, another seems to step forward. Sam knows that there will always be another demon making the attempt to step up and be king. And for some reason, it seems that any up and comer demon will find it necessary to mess with the Winchesters as a kind of proving ground of their dominance.
So Sam knows this isn't over. It's never over. The question then is what would someone do who doesn't have a moral compass? If it were me? If you can't defeat them, then you should rule them. If he's controlling their actions then he's not at the mercy of them. But first, he's got to derail this plan to bring back his soul... permanently. Can't have Dean or a rival demon bringing it back and in essence making Sam at worse a vegetable and at best our soulful Sammy. Neither is conducive for Soulless Sam's plans. Thus we see how far he's willing to go to get that in next week's episode.
Sam has always been a planner. I suspect he is playing a very elaborate con and I'm dying to see what cards are hidden up his sleeve.
Now, here's the thing. Do I think that Sam being the big bad makes him evil? Nope. Because it isn't Sam. He does not have the part that makes him our Sammy. There isn't anything to forgive because this isn't Sam. This only ups the ante on the need to bring back Sam's soul. And I trust Dean to do what should be impossible because that's what Winchesters do. What we get back when Sam gets his soul back is hard to say. But like Dean, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
So that's why I can't even entertain this idea, because to me, this Soulless Sam is still Sam, in a sense. I really hope this is only misdirection, like Melaniedesi said.
I gotta say for me it is your emotions that make you human. Without the ability to feel sadness, joy, fear, anger or love is to take away everything that makes us human. The very act of trying to determine someone's motives without thinking how they are feeling at the time is very difficult for me. Without your feelings, how would you react?
I agree memories are important too. They are the lessons learned but in Sam's case without the emotions attached. He knows that Dean is a devoted brother who will watch his back and that makes him a good ally and hunting partner. But he's unable to feel the love that comes with it. He knows that Meg killed Jo and Ellen but he can't feel the anger from it. He knows that demons will lie and cheat every chance they get but he can't feel the betrayal and hurt that came from those lessons.
There are many things that we don't do that are considered wrong because it allows us as a society to stay civilized. Things that we won't do because we feel disgust or fear at the very idea of those actions. Sam doesn't have that. The only thing stopping Sam is the knowledge that if he crosses the line that hunters have that he will be hunted down and killed. Once Sam no longer fears that then he will become truly frightening.
Up until this point, Sam was willing to follow Dean's lead because memory tells Sam that Dean more often than not knows what he's doing and is successful at the job. He knew that to keep Dean calm, he needed to play along with the Pinocchio and Jiminy roles that Dean was demanding. I've gotten the feeling from Dean that he suspects the same and he knows how very dangerous Sam can be.
Wanted to add another two cents and add a thought to Jeannine’s idea. Had a memory of "It's a Wonderful Life". There, the boys were deprived of their memories but not of who they are, their souls. Even without their memories, they acted as they would have acted with their memories. (Though of course, angel tinkering played a role. I'm aware this argument has some holes, but I like using it to back up my POV anyway :D) So while memories are incredibly important, they hardly define or control who a person is within the universe that is Supernatural.
I'm uncertain of the entire definition or role that a soul plays within SPN, but I understood it to be more than a knowledge of what is right and wrong. I believed it to be the (this sounds so StarWarsy) essence of who a person is.
Body/Robo/MemorySam has the memories that define his knowledge. The brain/body defines his intelligence and hotness. The soul defined his personality and it is missing. But it is more than his personality, it's his, well, soul!
Memories could be considered physiological since they are stored within the brain. Certain sights, smells, words fire synapses off, and there is a memory of a past time. And the soul is purely spirit. Sure, it can be influenced by the physical, but it, in itself, is not physical.
Of course the show also has shown that the soul has memories, since we’ve run into ghosts, demons and heavenly departed who remember things. So how much memories and soul are intertwined, I’ve no idea. But it has led me to wonder what Sam’s soul looks like without his memories, and all I can think are bleak thoughts. What if Sammy is down there, in the pit, just a soul? A feeling, terrified soul, with no memory of his brother, love, sacrifice and why he is there? I feel sick thinking about it. But the upside to that, is that without his memories, maybe the ability to remember has also been taken from him! Now I’m conjecturing and I thought I’d quit that.
I don’t WANT RoboSam to be the big bad, but Alice put up some good arguments and it certainly would tie a lot of loose ends together. What I WANT is Sammy back. It’s getting weary having pure faith that the writers will return him, preferably soon.
It does make a horrible sort of sense but I'm going to be REALLY REALLY fed up if you turn out to be right, Alice. I'm enjoying RoboSam for his badassery and hot-evilness but I'm also hoping for the status quo to be restored sooner rather than later ... I've had enough of Bro V's Bro and I've had enough of Sam-Gone-Bad, if he is this season's major nasty then I don't think any subsequent reconciliation between the two of them will be at all believable and that will be a HUGE bummer ( you can tell I'm all miffed and upset when my caplock habit gets out of hand ... )
If Souless Sam is supposed to be the big baddie of the season, what is his motivation and his goal? All of our bad guys that were worth more than a passing glance had clear purposes and endgames in mind. Meg's was to help her father and now is shown as a Lucifer loyalist. YED's plan was to set Lucifer's vessel on his path and prepare him for his destiny. Crowley wanted to take over Hell. Zachariah wanted to start the apocalypse. TheTrickster/Gabriel had clear motives behind his behavior, even though they were on a much smaller scale. We already have some serious bad guys set up with very clear motivations - Rafael wants to restart Zachariah's plan. Hell seems on the verge of the same kind of civil war that Heaven is going through now (perhaps made worse by the elimination of the defacto leader). Monsters are losing their fear of hunters.
Souless Sam has zero in the way of desires beyond banging every hot waitress west of the Mississippi and killing monsters. He lacks a moral compass, but he also lacks anying real in the way of desire beyond self-preservation. It's the lizard part of the brain laid bare. He gets no feelings of pleasure than the immediate physical, has no drive or urges. What would his reason be for doing anything at all? I've always felt that he's hunting because it gives him something to do and it is something that he remembers as being important. He could just as easily make his goal reading every book in the Library of Congress - it would have just as much meaning to him.
Can Souless Sam do bad things? Sure, but they've made it clear that when he does it's for expediency's sake and no with a grand scheme in mind. Even when he did what was probably the worst thing and allowing Dean to be turned by a vampire, it was a calculated plan with every expectation that Dean would be restored to normal afterwards and the bad guys would quickly be taken down. Sam right now has all the motivation of a great white shark - something big and scary that you wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of, but not something that's going around planning the destruction of all creation.
Some of your ideas just don't make a lot of sense. Such as Sam telling Cas to take care of all the monsters that Crowley had imprisoned. What were they supposed to do with them? Just let them go? The smart thing was to just kill all of them because there wasn't a single one of those creatures that wouldn't or hasn't already harmed someone but that would be a pretty bloody and lengthly proposition given all the monsters stashed there (as well has the prospect of having to killed juvinille shapeshifters). Having Cas handle it was the smartest thing.
As for how Sam dealt with Meg by quickly killing one of her underlings, that was exactly what I would have done. The only way he and Dean could be assured that Meg wasn't going to sell them out was to make it clear that 1) they were on the same side and 2) turning on them would be a monumental mistake. Demons understand power and threats, not hugs and puppies (to quote Meg).
And when it comes down to Sam's powers, the writing has been so uneven that I have no clue what they have planned. His powers seem to vanish as suddenly as they reappear so while a powered up, ammoral Soulless Sam might be a pretty scary prospect, we still lack any desire or motivation for him to become a real villian.
I could get invested in a truly evil Sam, but this constant teasing is tiring and frustrating.
Which is too bad, because what you postulated was brilliant!!!!!
I really would love for the writers to have concocted something bigger than the obvious. This is truly how they played Ruby and also the angel agenda in S3 and S4. Then in S5 all levels of con and deception were destroyed.
I'd like to have faith in the writers' ability to give us a little bit of trickery!!!
I see Sam as a golem at times, but also possibly as a conduit for Lucifer and Michael who are unable to leave the cage. I'm hoping that by now, Lucifer and Michael are working together to get out. There has to be a lock and also a key to the CAGE. What is it? I don't know. But it should involve the Winchester brothers. That just makes sense.
This season has been tight and well written...I am hoping that it continues.
Now with this past Friday's program, where we see Sam was showing "fear" and "emotions" about not wanting his soul back, shows me that he must have something going on inside him because if he is soulless then he couldn't show fear of getting it back- right? Hummmm.....I would love to see the "demon of fear" make his appearance to Sam, Dean, and Cas and Bobby, to play his treacherous tricks with their minds and greatest fears. Like with Dean, his greatest fear is loosing his brother, that he can't protect him and looses him to satan for ever. And Cas- his greatest fear would be that God has given up on the world and man-kind. And Sam's greatest fear would be he can never be a normal human-being, yet it's his hope that he can and will over ride this dilemma but it's his greatest fear that he can't. Then Bobby's greatest fear would be him losing the boys forever at his error. Their like his boys and he's always there for them, but somehow by some screwup he's loses them.
I love this blogsite. thank you for having it so we can all stress out together! ha ha!
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