Let's Speculate: "Supernatural" 8.12, "As Time Goes By"
Wednesday, 30 January 2013 23:11 | Last Updated on Thursday, 31 January 2013 00:54 | Written by Ardeospina | 
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I have a feeling I'm going to be in the minority with this opinion, and that's totally fine, but I did not like this episode. Like, at all. I just had so many issues with it that I couldn't enjoy it. In fact, I disliked it so much that I'm going to do a little speculating and then bullet point the rest because I honestly don't feel like writing up anything more than that. I don't want to spend more time on this episode than I have to. Bad, right? Yep, that's how much I disliked it. Feel free to try and change my mind in the comments section!
Speculation Station (shh, just let me have that bad rhyme)
10-1 there's a tablet in this "supernatural motherlode" repository or whatever it is. I'm hoping it's a really mundane one, though, like "How To Make Coffee the Way God Likes It" or "Gabriel's Favorite Dirty Jokes" or something like that. I'd settle for a "How To Resurrect Fallen Angels" though. Think they're gonna have Garth and Kevin hole up there? I know Garth would love to get his hands on that kind of material. And this key thing, is that just to open the door to this secret knowledge area or does it translate everything for you or what's going on with the key? Honestly, I did not understand most of that exposition between Sam and the old man. I kept getting distracted by the whole "inside the box there is a key," and I was like, "there must be a lock, then. Damn it!" And what do you think Sam and the old man were talking about by "that thing" Abaddon really couldn't get her hands on, like it would be a game changer? Tablet is my guess.
Umm, that's kind of all I've got because everything else is just gonna be me poking at what I considered plot holes. So here goes!
The Rest
- I felt like this episode tried to set up too much. Men of Letters, Knights of Hell (really, though?), the origin of Ruby's knife, this supernatural book repository, John Winchester's sudden father issues. There was too much going on, so none of it got fleshed out properly.
- I also felt like this was a little repetitive, with the whole "Sam and Dean have a family member with a secret life they never knew about" thing. Mary's reveal was much better.
- I guess Dean's favorite gun got restored from feathers at some point in last week's episode.
- The John Winchester Dean met in a diner did not seem like the kind of person with crippling daddy issues. In fact, another patron told John to "say hi to his father," and John replied that he would. Who is this other father? Stepfather? Continuity error? John had a lot of issues, but daddy issues? I don't see it. Retcon of the worst kind.
- Speaking of John, Dean is suddenly his champion again? Sam suddenly is angry at him now? Because when we last dealt with John issues, these two came down on the opposite side of where they did tonight.
- Did anyone else find it a bit odd that Dean was SO gung-ho about saving Sam and being so demonstrative about how important he was to him, etc.? Like, I get that when Sam is in trouble, Dean's gonna save him. No brainer. But the Dean of now, who has very recently had some serious issues with his brother, would be more likely to say something along the lines of, "he's my brother, and no matter what's going on between us at the time, I'm gonna save him if I can." See what I did there? I acknowledged things that happened in previous episodes!
- If Henry was such a bookworm, where did he learn that handcuff trick?
- So now angels leave real feathers lying around? And Dean just happens to have some in his trunk?
- Dean and Sam are both very smart people, and we've seen them be innovative countless times. Neither of them thought about a devil's trap on a bullet before? That was pretty cool, though.
- Abaddon and Crowley needed to have some screen time together in this episode. Snark city!
- Can one person on this show NOT have daddy issues?
- Just a casual reminder, Dean, that you do have family aside from Sam. He's your half-brother, Adam, and he's in HELL. Remember him? No? Okay then.
- Normal, Illinois. Nice try! No one is normal on this show, not even Illinois!
- "Dudes travelling through motel closets, that's what we've come to?" That was a good line.
- Henry broke Baby's window. Bad John! No! No! But Dean miraculously got it fixed before the drive at the end. Unless that was some really glass-like plastic sheeting.
- That demon smoke spying thing was pretty rad. I'm guessing only the Knights of Hell (again, really?) can do it, though, since we haven't seen it before?
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Comments
Probably too, coming off the high of last week's ep didn't help. lol
Honestly, how is what Sam and Dean did to Henry any different than what Samuel did to them?
Plus, after everything that Sam and Dean have sacrificed, especially after Sam's big decision that's dominated the last few weeks, Dean gave Henry grief over putting duty first? Huh?
Ardeospina said it perfectly about John's sudden Daddy issues, so I won't repeat there.
It's been a common problem for the last few seasons, some writers have focused more on shoutouts than good old fashioned continuity.
Kelly - I started referring to Sam as the "D.i.D." this season. If I could stomach the effort of a season rewatch, I was going to tally up the number of times that Sam has either needed rescuing or has otherwise been incapacitated so that Dean (or last week, Charlie) could play the hero.
It REALLY bothered me that, with all the talk of Lucifer, Sam didn't even flinched. Not even an exchanged glance between the brothers? Seriously? They don't remember anything of the trouble that devil caused? Doesn't have any impact on them at all? Have the writers watched this show?
Sacrifice Grandpa for Sam? What, is he not family, too? The family obsession doesn't extend past the brothers anymore? Doesn't seem right to me.
Dean's talk of saving Sam because he couldn't save his Dad? His Dad? He doesn't remember Sam going to Hell, losing his soul, losing his mind... Wouldn't that be a bit more recent thing to think about having not saved Sam? For a guy carrying around a lot of unnecessary guilt, where's all the guilt about that? Would have made more sense to me if he'd talked about needing to rescue Sam because of that.
It would've had a much bigger impact on me, if it had been Sam going to save Dean, imho. Put to rest the question of whether Sam WOULD try to save Dean, - or 'run' - since they've started the season that way.
If they're not going to answer the question of why Sam ran after S7, they need to at least show that he wouldn't run in S8.
Sorry this turned into a bit of a rant, but I guess bottom line, I agree with you Ardeospina. This one was mostly a fail for me. Both in continuity and in characterization.
Plus, if the knights of Hell were the first demons, handpicked by Lucifer, what was Lilith, you know, the biggest baddest demon that we heard about for 2 seasons? She was the first demon. She didn't make it into the Knights of Hell. Plus really strong demons used to have white eyes, or yellow eyes, now a Knight of Hell is downgraded to piddly black. This one really, really sat wrong with me.
Lilith was the biggest, baddest demon they'd heard of, and she had white eyes. But these Knights of Hell have black eyes - the point is, they're impervious to methods of killing that other demons aren't i.e. are more powerful. So what if they have black eyes? What other color can we go with? Yellow, Red, and White are all taken! :)
My point is, there's a difference between contradicting canon and adding to it or fleshing it out. A lot of these alleged 'holes' seem to fall in the latter category, IMO.
But Lilith was not only first, she was the final key to opening Lucifers cage.... And they killed her with Ruby's knife.....
I can't imagine that if Lucifer had a way to protect his Knights from demon knives and such, that he wouldn't have protected Lilith, his first. If he was still in such contact with his demons, wouldn't he have "knighted" her or whatever?
There's a few holes here, for me.
Never mind.
*shudder*.... Please God, no....
Just wanted to point out that Henry had said (I believe) that they had thought the Knights of Hell were extinct, that the archangels had killed them all. So it's possible that Abbadan was the only one left of her kind, and therefore there were none available for Lucifer to use when the time came.
I guess the point is still kind of lost on me. :)
Sam knows a thing or two about how to deal with demons, but this was no ordinary demon. She was a powerful knight of hell, and couldn't be killed in a normal way. While I suppose I can understand the distaste for Sam having to be put in the position of 'rescuee', I'm not seeing how he was a passive victim here, considering he was knocked out and tied up by such a powerful demon, that he had no weapons he could kill her with, and that she was likely to kill him before he finished any exorcism.
However, I will be doing a review in a day or two, and I will describe at length my issues in this episode with Sam's characterization. Perhaps I can explain myself better rather than getting one off quick reaction comments I made last night picked apart when my overall reaction was not made clear.
So please, yes, we can continue this, in a few days in my episode review thread. Thank you.
Hey, no problem! I'm not really looking to 'debate', just to get some clarification on your perspective. I have noticed the issues with the site lately, and wish you luck. I appreciate your hard work to keep this thing running, and I look forward to your review. :)
I think from my understanding Kinghts of Hell are different than Azazel and Lilith. Let me try to explain what I perceive from the dialogue.
Henry didn't get to know all there was to know about the secret because he failed the final initiation. When Sam told them about the Knights of Hell, he assumed that the Archangels had killed them all. He was wrong.
From my understanding Knights of Hell were a kind of elite assassin like the Musketeers. They were hand picked by Lucifer to carry out orders of Hell.
Azazel and Lilith were Royal Demons. They were Lucifer's adviser and confidante. Their strength laid in their smart and in their abllity to formulate complicated plan. They were willing to die for the success of the plan and their end game was to resurrect Lucifer.
Azazel died by the Colt. A special made Colt and special made bullets. Lilith must die by the power of Lucifer's vessel. I'm sure the colt could kill her too but her blood must be spilled to let Lucifer rise. From what I understand of magic, the instruction must be followed to the letter for it to work. If Lilith was killed by the colt, Lucifer might not be risen and the Plan would be destroyed.
Abbadon is trapped by devil trapped bullet. Since they boys lost the Colt, they can't use it to kill Abaddon. Even if they have the Colt I am not sure that Abbadon can be killed by it because they don't have the special bullet anymore.
Ruby told Bobby how to fix the Colt but I don't think she's stupid enough to tell him how to make the special bullet ala Samuel Colt. Meaning the new bullets might not be powerful enough to kill Lilith or Abbadon.
The knife obviously could only kill lower rank Demon. I bet Lilith would be immune to the knife too. That's why Ruby dared to bring that weapon to the surface because it wouldn't kill Lilith. Only the Colt and its original special bullet could.
So, I'll go with the old man here, the elder who says that Abbadon despite being a Knight of Hell is only a hired gun. Reinforcing my understanding of them being an elite club of assassins. The Musketeers. Whereas Lilith and Azazel were like Duke and Dutches of Hell. The Royals. All of them might have been first born demons but they served different purpose and carrying different order.
Azazel and Lilith definitely ranked higher than Knights of Hell. Azazel and Lilith formulate a plan and the Knights of Hell execute them. Just like the Men of Letters and Hunters.
Probably the reason of their different eye color is because Azazel and Lilith has Royal blood, Royal blood of hell? Wasn't Alistair has white eyes too? And he was killed by Sam? Not the knife or the Colt.
Yup, our mileage definitely varies on that one, but fair enough! :)
That's been my problem with the entire season to date, Alice.... starting back with the 'I ran'. It is SO not Sam.... unless they show us how he broke, I haven't bought into this DiD Sam, and they just keep showing him as incompetent, even in a fight.
I'm asking for some concrete examples. I can't think of anything myself, but maybe you guys who think he should have rescued himself can.
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I have noticed the problems so I understand you have more pressing issues on your plate! Good luck!
That's why Sam can't kill demons with his mind now, because he's not drinking any demon blood. And I think it's assumed, though certainly never stated, that when Cas pulled Sam out of Hell, he cleaned him up just as he had in "Sympathy for the Devil." Plus, once Lucifer was locked away again and the apocalypse derailed, perhaps Sam's inherent ability to be a vessel - and all that went along with that - lost all power. Or it could just be that Sam had bigger things to worry about dealing with his soullessness and hallucinations post-hell anyway. Personally, I've always noticed how stoic Sam has seemed since S4 compared to earlier seasons, and attributed that in large part to him battling internal demons (not literally) and keeping that dark side of him in check. Basically, dude's got a ton of self-control. And that's why Sam's stoic way of dealing with his hallucinations also made sense to me.
I'm sure there are many ways of interpreting these events, and the speculating is certainly fun - I love that there's wiggle room in the story for this kind of discussion. :)
Which is why it didnt fit in with the other special children . Sam had started to develop abilites that were I believe part of him in the earlier seasons. Like Missouri and others natural pysche abilites well at least for me.
Samuel sold out Sam and Dean to a demon to be killed so he could bring his daughter back from the grave.
Dean traded Henry to get his very much alive brother out of a powerful demon's clutches, but had a plan to trick/kill that demon ideally saving them all, Henry included.
He can't exorcise a demon w/his mind. He just can't do it. If he could still do that, wouldn't he have been doing it all throughout S6 and S7? And S5? Even Lucifer remarked that Sam was full of "go juice" or whatever when he quickly dispatched those demons in Swan Song. Plus, SS wouldn't have needed to bite into his hand to make a DT if he could have just exorcised the demons w/his mind. Sam stopped doing that a long time ago. So, in this situation, he was actually quite helpless.
As far as the daddy issues are concerned - I'm guessing everyone on the writing staff has them. Haha! Seriously though, I don't think it was ever said that John had "crippling" daddy issues so that's why John never presented that way. He thought his dad abandoned them and probably resented him for it, but that doesn't mean he has plagued w/daddy issues . . . at least not to me.
And Samuel sold out Sam and Dean. Dean devised a plan w/Henry to rescue Sam. Dean told Henry that he was going to have to get close, so I don't see the similarities btw the two.
This is where the story falls apart in S4 and S5. I always thought it was a mental block preventing Sam from tapping into his power. He moved that desk under extreme stress and when he had a vision of Dean dying. Since S1, I was waiting for Sam to demonstrate from TK again, but he never did. With regard to his other powers, Sam was raised a hunter. He saw himself as tainted and evil b/c of the DB. Plus, he had John's words always in he back of his mind about Dean possibly having to murder Sam. I couldn't see him consciously giving into the power and accessing it b/c it would go against everything he was taught. He would see himself like Ava or Jake, so his powers never developed on their own like they did w/the other PKs. However, if Sam drank DB and believed it was the DB that was helping him do these things, then he would let down his guard and freely tap into that power w/in himself.
Does that make any sense? Haha! I thought that's what Ruby meant when she said he didn't need the feather (i.e., DB). Sam could always do those things but couldn't get past his mental block to do them.
So, I thought something would come of Ruby's statement, and that we'd see Sam access some of his powers again free of the DB, but Kripke just dropped that angle. Nothing ever came of it. Sam never tapped into that power, and he has never exorcised a demon that way again so I have to believe he cannot do it. He should be able to given what Ruby said, but he never has.
I'm not sure if we're supposed to believe his blood was wiped clean or anything. If so, when did that occur? And why wasn't it clearly stated on the show?
Even if he did overcome the block, I'm not sure he would instantly be able to go straight to 'killing with the power of his mind'?
So with or without DB, he probably could, just that DB kind of accelerates the process. At least, that's the way I see it.
I don't see why Sam, if he does have his powers, would want to tap into them again, though. It kind of ended badly the last time.
I don't know either, if we're supposed to assume it was wiped clean. I guess after Swan Song, the story was pretty much done, so I think we were meant to expect Sam not to use them again.
I don't think any television show with multiple seasons stands up to serious rewatching. There's always something. I'm gonna have to go with John had a step-father that he loved, and was told to say "hi" to in the diner. God knows his mother must have been drop dead gorgeous with that DNA line. lol
So, Sam didn't need the feather (i.e., demon blood) to fly (i.e., exercise powers). That's how I always interpreted her comment to Sam.
My sister took that way even on the first watch of it- I have to admit I didn't at first. I thought maybe Kripke did do a little reworking of his idea between seasons 4 and 5, because he was going a slightly different way with the story and it was left kinda vague. But it was established pretty firmly in S5 that he needed the blood in order to use his powers.
At the very least though, even if Sam could use his powers without the Demon Blood, I don't think he would want to. He associates that with the worst mistakes in his life, when he feared he was becoming a monster. I don't think he would take the chance of walking that path again.
Plus, Kripke's script should have been tighter if he had to do an interview to explain what a character meant by a statement she said.
JMO of course!
If the writer wants, Sam can too. But I will believe it if Sam is too afraid to do it because he is afraid that he will crave DB again if he is as much as exercise it again.
The boys need to see Missouri. She knows that Sam has psychic power. She's the one who can clear that up and maybe tell Dean that Sam's power is not evil.
I understand Dean's worry about Sam using his power. He just need someone good and with legitimate psychic power to back up Sam. Assurance that Sam wont turn bad.
The show doesnt seem inclined to want to deal with anything that has gone before with Sam so his powers will likely be something not touched upon again although I am in the camp that believe he was born with them as were the other PK children .
W/r/t how quickly Sam could develop the powers - Jake seemed to progress fairly quickly so I guess it depends on how much you "give in" . . . who really knows? As you said, that plot was pretty much dropped!
Ansem and Andy were separated at birth. When Andy was 6 month old his adopted mom killed by Azazel but not Ansem. I'm still not sure that Ansem has Demon blood in his veins but he's still a powerful mind reader.
From what I understand from Azazel's speech about DB is that it was like Ovaltine. It makes them stronger and gives them ability to tap into their natural power.
Azazel choose bloodline. He didn't just pick random 6 months old babies to feed them his blood. The babies must be from a strong lineage and have potential to accept the blood. If not, they can go crazy or burn out.
My theory is Archangels such as Michael and Lucifer are the only ones who knows about the Campbel and Winchester bloodlines. Lucifer knows but he was caged.
Azazel must do a special ceremony (killing all the nuns in that Church) just to be able to converse with Luci. I don't think Luci can rely about the manifested bloodline to Azazel at the time. So, dear old Azazel was left only to guess which is the correct bloodline to be the perfect vessel.
This is also the reason why Abbadon as a hired gun, elite assassin, Knight of Hell was tasked, probably by Azazel himself to find the key to the motherlode of knowledge. If this happened in 1958 then Azazel was still trying to find out about the bloodline of the vessel.
If the key fell into Abbadon's hand and she gives it to Azazel, the Apocalypse would be started way much earlier. In conclusion, Henry has already postponed the apocalypse. Giving Sam and Dean time to be born.
I too hope that Sam can exercise his power without going bad like Andy. But I guess the writers has abandon that plot long time ago.
Another thing to point out. Ever since 'Tiger Mommy" Sam is depicted as the smart one, the one who figure out how to read backwards exorcism, the one who can compete with Kevin in math. Sam's described as the Brain while Dean is the Brawl.
Perhaps disregarding any continuity of previous season,
It's easy to see once last night's episode was aired that the goal of this season is to meet the brains of the Winchester blood with the brawl of the Campbels blood.
If we go back to watch previous episodes Dean is depicted as the brash one, the callous one. While Sam the thinker, the smart one. He's the one who found out lore and such.
The writers are trying hard to differentiate the two so much that Sam and Dean seemed to lose a bit of their previous identity. Spending time away from each other has proven not good for SamandDean. They've become someone else. But together ....
I look forward to your extended review. I honestly thought Ardeospina's review was some kind of April Fool's joke, but it was not. Sam use to kill demons with his mind, but not anymore. That's not a plot hole. He was not acting as a hapless victim. The Abaddon was a demon that cannot be killed with Ruby's knife. What was Sam suppose to do? This is not the first time one of the boys was taken by a bad guy, and had to sit with their hands tied as an exchange was made. Of course they (Dean and Henry) didn't think Abaddon would let Henry live, that is why they tried, unsuccessfully, to have a Plan A and deal with her. Plan A was in theory suppose to end with all Winchesters living.
Dean's grief for putting duty first, do you mean in his first rant to Henry about not being there for John? How is that not a natural first reaction, meeting what you always thought was a dead beat Dad? Once Dean could see this was not Henry's choice, Dean had new insight and did not blame Henry for not being in John's life.
Samuel sold out his grandsons to Crowley, in hopes of seeing his dead daughter again. I don't see the connection of what Sam and Dean did to Henry? What did they do? You don't think the boys thought the only outcome would be a dead Henry? They would have done whatever they could to not have that happen.
Good luck with your technical issues, I look forward to your review.
I just can't believe that the way I see and understand these characters is so, soooooo much far those PVO's. I'm realy in need of an explanation.
LOL, I was thinking the same thing- 'there is a key, so there must be a lock...'
Plot-hole-ridden, paint-by-the-numbers, retcon-city bullish*t.
And the charisma definitely didn't come from that side of the family.
I didn't mind that the Winchester's also have a legacy, to me that actually makes the "meant to be" make more sense.
And Sam didn't seem angry about John to me, he just pointed out some of his parenting skills. And I thought it realistic that Dean was defending John in this situation.I didn't see any of this as being retcon, since it we never had any information that completely contradicted it.
And maybe it's just me, but I was overjoyed to hear some heartfelt sentiments from Dean. I loved this, especially compared to the talks of "duty" and owing the other. And I'm sure Dean was talking family that was actually alive and with Adam being in the cage I not sure that qualifies.
I can see the repository being a cool thing depending on how its handled.
Now I did see things I considered to be holes. 1. tear of dragon at the shop (nobody knew dragons existed S6, but perhaps this is not something from an actual dragon). And 2. shouldn't that bullet gone through her head at such close range.
Things like the magically restored gun issue doesn't really bother me that much. Dean's gun has been restoring itself for years. If show were going to be totally realistic about it, that gun should have been lost in season 1's Nightmare when Max shot himself with it. It should have been confiscated by the police never to be seen again, but Dean had it back next episode; this kind of thing, along with Baby's window; I don't mind just assuming that Dean got it fixed off screen.
One thing did occur to me though; when Henry said that the line of 'men of letters' would continue as long as there was a Winchester made me think of Amelia and Sam's last go-round. At the time, I thought it an odd choice to have Sam sleep with Amelia knowing about her husband; but now I am wondering if there must be a Winchester next generation to perpetuate the 'Men of Letters' thing....so maybe all the speculation about a "whose your Daddy" conundrum isn't that far off? Did anybody else think this as well? Theoretically at the start of season 9 (if there is one) Amelia would be 8 months pregnant if things are flowing along in more or less real time. I know many people HATE this idea with a passion, but maybe it could work if the baby is part of the mythology....maybe? Anyhoo, I am probably wrong about this, but the though just popped right into my head and now I can't shake it.
And just one more mention about recurring actors; the old man was on before, I am sure of it, I just can't remember which episode.
I'm with you on this. It would just end up being another reason to sideline Sam who already doesn't get enough POV IMO.
Sam would probably be portrayed as a deadbeat dad who doesn't even see his kid or he would again abandon Dean in a time of need and be portrayed as a selfish jerk!
Just no babies!
After his bitchface at Dean about the Emma issue, I think it will be a hypocrite of Sam if that happen. An error in the plotline and major discontinuity there.
That said, I can't imagine that Sam, knowing that he could pass on the "Lucifer vessel" gene, would ever risks getting someone pregnant. However, since this has never been addressed in canon, Sam may still want children as part of his normal some day.
It'll be a nightmare. There's still no real answer about who Ben's daddy is. Is it Dean? I'm almost sure it's Dean. Both of them are too alike in mannerism.
Not to mention, Sam's just put both feet back into the game. If they now introduce pregnant Amelia, and it's Sam's kid he's got to take some responsibilty for it, which means he's back to one foot in, one foot out, and just seems too much trouble for what it's worth.
Anyway, this is probably way too rambly and detailed for a speculation. I'm not completely adverse to the idea, just don't really want to see it play out any time soon.
You summed it up perfectly. There is no need for any babies on this show. My only disagreement is that I am completely opposed to the idea on ALL levels. I wouldn't even want it hinted at in the series finale, esp. w/Amelia.
If they managed to find a girl Jared sparked with like the Ren Fair girl, then maybe but just NO to Amelia. She's awful!
My sentiments exactly. I happened to hate her during the last episode I see her. Please not with Amelia. Could Charlie be willing to be surrogate? If not, then find a woman who has better chemistry with Jared/Sam or no babies at ALL.
Have you ever noticed how many lighters Dean goes through
Quoting E:
(Edited by Alice - Spoiler) this idea could be pretty much a self-fulfilling prophecy. If enough people mention it the writers may decide to go with it. As far as I was concerned it was a fantastically bad idea on Angel and would be very likely just as much of a mess here.
Dean's favourite gun is a beauty with engraving along the barrel. The gun Max took from Dean had no engraving, but a plain barrel.
And then my personal, continuing, sorry I frustrate people gripe. After the boys find out that Henry is their grandfather, Dean gets several emotional scenes with Henry, defending John while Sam sits silent on the sidelines. When Dean storms out after finding out that in all these years they never noticed that the journal didn't have John's initials, but had Henry's Sam and Henry exchange NOT ONE WORD. Sam gets to have his purpose in being a hunter described to him by soon to be dead victim of the week, while Dean shares his emotions with his grandfather.
I am not a happy camper. We started this year with the idea that Sam didn't care enough about Dean to look for him when he disappeared. Now we have reinforced the idea that Dean will sacrifice anything and everything for Sam, while Sam is still the bad, uncaring worthless brother. I can't even. And better yet
SPOILER!! I'm not sure the spoiler code works.
[spoiler] No more flashbacks, so we will never see how Sam reacted when Dean disappeared.[/spoiler]
(Note from Alice: Sorry, it isn't working, is it? I probably accidentally wiped out the BBCode I put in the first time when I upgraded. I'll work on getting this restored.)
I liked the eppie, but that article??!
Meh, maybe I should go vent at the bitterness thread. I REALLY feel like venting. Or throwing something, after reading that.
Of course the "bad, uncaring brother" thing always gets to me as I never feel that. Last week I visited some other sites and saw an almost 50/50 mix of people who dislike Sam and those who dislike Dean going at each other like piranha. I can't tell you how much I hated that. So yes, I saw that attitude but they were just as brutal to Dean.
The moments I like between the brothers are the subtle ones that show they care without the big pronounced declarations about family, brotherhood. It is understood. By me anyway.
Depends on the writer and whose POV they exercise. They can just write from a Demon POV who tailed Sam right from he ran away from Dick's lab. Or just tortured a demon and make them spill about their "spying on Sam" activity. ALso there is still the question about the mysterious figure outside the house in Epi. 01.
From what I've learned, there are many interesting ways to tell a story.
I don't know, all the new things excited me. There's so much there they can work with - it's like this whole new dimension has opened up within the show - and I'm really stoked about it. Doesn't matter that we don't have everything fleshed out right now.
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Repetitive, eh. I can give you that. But it was different. And it was unexpected and interesting and kind of cool...at least IMO. :)
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I don't know that this is entirely fair. There was never a suggestion that John had "crippling daddy issues," just that he hated his father because he thought he'd run off. My dad grew up with the same situation. He wasn't crippled by it. But he did resent his dad for it and tried to raise us differently. Granted, there could be a continuity error here, but it's easily explained, and therefore doesn't bother me.
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I didn't see anywhere in this episode that Sam was angry at John again, so I'm a little confused. I think the only thing that they came down differently on was their judgment of Henry, in which case both acted within character (Dean being stubborn and harsh, Sam being more open and willing to listen).
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I must admit, I actually made the comment - "whoa, they must have done some serious relationship-mending in the past episode!" Which they kind of did, or at least it was a step in the right direction. I get that Henry's presence would necessarily make Dean start thinking about John again. So it makes sense that he would say something like what he did, pointing out that he never wants what happened to John to happen with Sam - he never wants to not be able to save Sam. This makes total sense, despite their issues.
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My understanding was that it was magic.
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I was surprised by that, too. LOL
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One of my favorite parts of the episode! I love it when the boys get new tools and weapons!
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Yes!
My own thoughts:
I enjoyed the episode. It had good pacing, cool special effects, new and exciting twists, and just the right mix of action and drama.
I was hooked from the moment Abbadan failed to be killed with the demon knife. She was a new kind of foe, and I loved that. I also loved how they ended up defeating her.
I thought Henry was a strong character; I liked him. I also was VERY intrigued by this whole "Men of Letters" thing, as well as the box/key thing - SO MUCH THERE! I will be watching this episode again for sure, to catch more details. It also seems to me, that the "Men of Letters" thing would have much appeal for Sam, so it will be interesting to see where that goes.
There was a lot of undercurrent emotion, naturally, as a result of Henry's presence, bringing back memories - many unpleasant - for the brothers. I liked that.
I loved the ending - especially how they remembered NOT to burn Henry's remains (he wasn't a hunter, after all) and how the brothers voiced their different perspectives on their "legacy."
But most of all, I appreciate what the episode did in bringing the Winchester story full circle. For now we know WHY the bloodline was so important, WHY John and Mary were chosen to mate. And I love that those loose ends are tied up...while all the while creating more avenues of potential story to pursue.
I too think that this Men of Letters is an exciting new branch (and something Sam and his geeky ways can connect) and could be quite interesting depending on how they choose to handle it.
But nice to know that there are other folk who liked it when so many seem so disillusioned.
Honestly, IMO, they could have scrapped much of what we have seen, esp the Sam/Amelia story for a Henry arc. I would have rather seen that.
I also didn't find Sam angry with John at all. And I thought John's father was explained well. I really liked Henry. I loved the pace of the episode. To me, the episode was good because the focus was on Sam and Dean; they weren't just bit players in the show the way they have been, IMO, for much of the season.
Yeah, lala, I agree that I would have preferred a fleshing out of the Henry and Men of Letters storyline to all the Amelia soap opera stuff we got in the first half of the season. I also agree that it was nice to see the focus of an episode on Sam and Dean, and their family, rather than have them being bit players to whatever big bad thing is happening in the world this year.
I enjoyed this episode, even if it was a massive info dump, and it would have felt less like an abrupt set-up for the remainder of the season if the writers had taken their time to explore Henry's character etc over a few more episodes. I liked Henry, I liked the actor (he looked a bit like both Sam and Dean which I thought was a nice touch), I wanted to see more of Henry interacting with his grandsons and to hear more about his life. Henry dying so quickly rather underused the potential of the character, I think.
I'm presuming that Sam and Dean being Legacies is another way of them being special in addition to them being Archangel Vessels? Or is it part of the same thing i.e. their Legacy-ness is why they are Vessels and Henry didn't know that because he hadn't undergone his final initiation?
It was good to see Sam and Dean back on the same page and liking each other but it also felt like fence-mending had gone on off stage that we didn't get to see and that's a bit of an insta-fix, in my book. I *want* to see the fence-mending as it happens rather than just see the outcome.
This! I couldn't agree more w/you, Ciar! Henry should have been carried over multiple episodes. I hate that he died w/o really getting to know his grandsons or his son, and that the boys didn't get a chance to really know him. The actor was great. The story was interesting. I hate to think how much time was wasted (IMO) on Sam/Amelia and whatever else has been going on this year when we could have been exploring Henry. He was definitely killed off too soon, IMO.
Oh, and I also agree w/your last paragraph! I must admit though that I was just happy to see the boys working together and to see Dean's determination to save Sam. It's been so long, IMO, since they demonstrated genuine caring about each other. I think HCW was the last time for me. Since their rift is so contrived and fake to me, I don't know if I would care too much if it was swept under the rug, esp. since they have NO plans to have Sam explain why he thought Dean was dead. I'm ready to move on from Carver's contrived, OOC conflict!
I agree that time travel in order to change past history (not counting Frontierland and Time after Time, since it was not the goal then) never works for the best. Actually, it potentialy worsen things - In the Beggining is the best example. It's too much of a wild card, too much impredictable (butterfly effect and all).
Invariably changing timelines goes wrong though, you are right, which was the argument Dean actually went with.
And having a lot less Amelia and more Henry would have been much more enjoyable.
I hope to God she is not pregnant by Sam, but if she is, wouldn't it be thought to be Don as the dad?
Personally I think Ben is really Dean's kid. No no no I won't listen to Kripke deny it!
I think this storyline would have been better from the start of the season corresponding with the tablet arc and MOTW episodes, they could have ditched all the flashbacks including Amelia and Purgatory and Benny as they all apear to have been a complete wast of time now.
Total, irrelevant side note; if the Mother of All had been an actress like the one they got to play Abbadon it would have been totally bad ass. She was great, and really threatening and powerful. I really hope, despite her missing head, that she regenerates herself and that we get to see her again.
I'm going to add another thing to this: You have to consider the audience. Dean was talking TO HENRY, trying to explain to him why he was doing what he was doing. Henry knows nothing of Sam and Dean's issues. So why would Dean make mention of it? No, he goes for something that hits closer to home with Henry, and mentions John. How he couldn't save him, and that tore him up, and how he never wants to feel that way with Sam. Makes sense.
It may seem odd and weird for *us*, because we know about their history, but when being in Henrys shoes, it does fit.
I just wish I could be in Henrys shoes more often, get more insight into both guys. Sam was sadly silent, yet again.
So, as out of place it felt to me, as someone in the know, I am glad it was said. I'm glad Dean still feels this way, even after everything. It's not like I didn't know that, but it's nice to hear it every once in a while :)
All in all a very satisfying episode.
One question though and it's random, I know, but why do Sam and Dean even have angel feathers in the back of the Impala? Does Cas shed? I have this hilarious image of them trying to talk him into showing his wings just to take a few just in case they need a feather for some reason. Plus, I thought that Cas said in season 4 the angels were coming to try and stop the Apocolypse and hadn't been to Earth is thousands of years so how did Henry have a feather much less know about the Archangels?
I guess that John not knowing his father would explain partially why he didn't know how to be a father to Sam and Dean but it still seems out of left field.
LOL. I think they just have an angel feather, there's nothing behind that. I wouldn't be surprised if there were shruiken stars or ballistic missiles in that trunk, they probably just have one for no reason. Though I always thought the wings were...um...metaphorical.
Eh, you never know, maybe Cas dropped some on his way out once and they picked them up and tossed them in the trunk..you never know what might come in handy.
Quote: It's so funny that you mention that, I thought the same thing. Although, it is an interesting idea. Explains why Dean has these little flashes of genius sometimes and why Sam is so damn smart. It runs in the family! The brains from the Winchester brand and the brawn from the Campbells, mix them together and you get a very pretty result!
I know I'm no genius but all the stuff they are throwing at us is getting very confusing. Naomi, angels, Lucifers special demons, Crowley, prophets, tablets, keys....How are they going to tie all this together?
I did notice the magically reappearing window. Remembered that John was seemingly well adjusted in the past, with a dad. Missed the feathers turned back to gun though! Nice.
This one gets low marks from me. Thanks, as always, for the article. I am not going to even try any speculating because if there is one thing I am good at it is being BAD at guessing what is going to happen!
I didn´t see any glaring plotholes, that go against the existing lore, or can be easily explained.
I loved Henry, and more, I love how Sam finally has his own "legacy". Finally he doesn´t only fit into the family heritage, when he´s soulless.
It´s ok, to be a nerd.
Respect the nerds, we know shit!
I loved all the emotional undercurrents between the three. Exchanged looks between Sam and Dean, them being in tune again.
What I didn´t like was the fact, that Henry, of course, ended up dead.
Don´t get me wrong, it was a cool dying scene and everything... just.. can´t the boys keep at least one family member for ONCE?
The pacing was good, directing was good... I´m a happy camper.
It´s ok, to be a nerd.
Respect the nerds, we know shit!
I totally agree, Fluffy! Go nerds!
I actually liked it. I mean, yes there were some plotholes and the plot did move 100 miles a minute at times so I think I missed some lines but overall I thought it was good.
I didn't think that John having daddy issues was that off. Heck, many people I know have 'em and you just don't 'see' that about them right away, until you really get to know them. Plus a stepdad is very plausible idea explaining the In The Beginning line. I thought it seemed a bit fitting too, the way he raised the boys. He didn't abandon them physically, but I think he did abandon them emotionally, in way. When the boys got older and he got more and more obsessed. I don't mean that he didn't love them but sometimes people do repeat their parents' "mistakes" unconsciously.
I liked Henry. I didn't think that he had the original Winchester charisma all the way down, but I did like him, nevertheless. I could see some familiar Winchester qualities in him, stubborness, arrogance, loyalty, love and snark. Hihii, loved his snark.
I wished show would sometimes slow down in killing these guest characters. It would've been cool to have him around an eppie more or so that boys (and we) would get to know him and he gets to know the boys. I didn't really feel the connection from the boys to him. Less flip flap (and scenes) about Abaddon and more 'connection' Show!
I liked the idea of the Men of Letters, and am looking forward to meeting their base. I felt it kinda coming full circle in the "destiny" appartment that the angels didn't just have ordinary folk as the bloodline but supernatural -aware people, some by family (Henry and his forefathers) and some by tragic circumstances (John and his sons).
Only thing that was dissapointing was Sam and Dean. Mostly Sam. He was just sitting on the sidelines and not really connecting with Henry (or even trying to)... Or putting much of a fight about Henry being traded for him. And then just trying to leave? It was weird. It was like the PodSam from earlier season... And I was so happy to get some progress in LARP and The Real Girl... ah well.
I did like see Dean being all protective about Sam but it did feel weird, considering that Dean has been missing for quite some time and the way the brothers have been this season, so disconnected. It felt forced in a way, I agree with you.
So, was that old lady at the old guys house, who? He did say "Abaddon?" And she said "the years haven't been kind?" Ah, the audio was bad on my end so that scene was a bit confusing. So was she Abaddon or some other demon planted to find the key?
And how did Henry know that the boys had an angels feather in the trunk? And since the boys do know an angel, I didn't think it as ridiculous "ingredient", allthough it hasn't been mentioned before even by said angel...
Ooh, and, that was quite a youthfull looking 127-year old :) Maybe he'd tap into some hoodoo himself....
Like I said, a decent eppie. Sadly it was over waaayy to quickly to really build a connection to everything that was presented here.. Now, if the story this season would move along even half as fast...
I liked this episode for the most part but I totally agree with this. Both, or at least one, of these things (Sam not connecting with a character in a personal way / Sam being the damsel in distress (thanks ST50)) have happened in pretty much every episode this season and it has gotten really old.
I hope this doesn't happen but fear you may be right.
I picked out some stuff that I remembered
(From Alice - Sorry Hades, do not give away spoilers in any other threads other than the Spoiler section. A lot of people don't want to know this and we have to respect this. I'm taking away the comments below for now, but I'll restore it with hidden spoiler tags once I get that function working again).
It was an interesting interview, it spoiled a little about everyone without being particularly specific. I'm sorry if I'm a bit off with what I remembered and interpreted, I was trying to remember but there was quite a lot.
They can't be stupid enough to make her pregnant, can they? Hasn't the Amelia experiment been a complete and utter failure?
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Couldn't agree more w/you there! Dean is definitely not "unemotional." That doesn't even make sense and shows a complete lack of understanding about the characters, IMO.
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I know, right? That makes no sense! Sam's relationship w/John was hardly uncomplicated.
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I hope that's not the case, but you're probably right! I've come to not expect much for Sam from this show. I hope he isn't sidelined for the rest of the season, but wouldn't be overly shocked if that's what happened.
I was glad too that Singer seems to know this.
Trunk opens. Shot of the boys from inside the truck. Dean saying, "We've got work to do." Trunk slamming shut. Some classic rock playing!
Perfect ending IMO!
Yes. The ending I've always envisioned. To me it would be better than the blaze of glory thing.
I did find the ties between the Sam/Amelia relationship and the one explored in Casablanca to be interesting. Sam=Rick, Amelia=Ilse and Don=Laszlo. Duty before love and all that sort of thing. Here's hoping that duty doesn't end up making Sam as miserable as Rick.
It's good that you enjoyed it though. It didn't work for me on any level.
Nice to see another Samelia fan here! A fan that the story played out--I hope their story is done, but overall I liked it better than a lot of the mentioned "some."
What I am cautious about is this speculation of her coming back pregnant. To me, there are just too many ways a situation like that can be handled incorrectly. While I don't object to Sam and Dean having kids, I personally, don't want to watch that while the series is still ongoing.
As for Dean and John, well Dean's opinion of John only started to become 'tainted' after John died. He didnt start to see John for what he really was until after where as Sam was never blind to what kind of person/father John was. Dean followed blindly while Sam didnt. Also Sam reached an understanding with his feelings about John in season 5 after he too lost himself to the hunt/revenge much like John did. He made his peace in 'The Song Remains The Same'. Dean has become increasingly dissolusioned with hunting and the way they were brought up since John died and he has been been the one who has vocalised the anti-John POV for quite a while now. To me it felt like Dean in a way needed to understand his father (through Henry's actions) in order to make peace with his feelings? I think he sort of realised like Sam did that John had his faults but he was only doing the best he could. I would say though thatSam's relationship with John was more complicated where Dean's feelings towards John only became more complicated after John died mostly he seemed to get along with John quite well?
Well the Sam is the brains, Dean is the brawn(sp?) line definately suggests that Sam is more the researcher/background guy where Dean is the front and centre/action guy. That does lend itself to the conclusion that most fans had that Dean would carry out the tasks while Sam st back and did the research. For me it just reiterates the 'Sam is surpus top requirment' feeling the show has been giving me for a while now.
1) had more than 6 American only families, what there are no European MOLs or Asian? Has the supernatural decided they can only get work permits in the USA?
2) actually used anti-possession tattoos or pendants,
3)made certain that one member of the group would not be at a meeting so that if they got attacked by a supernatural creature the entire group wouldn't be killed off,
4) didn't blab all the secrets of the club to some stranger who shows up at your door 65 years after the disaster, especially a stranger who hasn't been drenched with holy water and cut with a silver knife.
Basically, the brains side isn't looking all that smart, so this is falling flat for me.
You would think they would know to be more cautious. But perhaps they did that anti-demon stuff up but it didn't work because of her being a Knight. Holy water didn't work on YED.
I just find this whole notion strange... Sam is the brains and Dean is the brawn? Has anyone seen Sam? The dude is huge...and scary when pissed; reducing him to just brains is ludicrous as is reducing Dean to just brawn; it's not like Dean is stupid. Geez. It's comments like this that make me wonder if the PTB really do know their own characters.
Given the way the brothers have been written this season, I'd say they don't. Sad.
If I may show my geek for a second, like the way it was done in The Twelve Tasks of Asterix (which is the first thing I thought of upon hearing about these tasks), where Asterix and Obelix completed different tasks, depending on who was better at certain things. Some Asterix did, some Obelix, and a few turned out to be team efforts. I think I would like this scenario better. The way it is now, it's pretty much going to be 'oh Sam/Dean got all the glory while Dean/Sam got to sit on the sidelines'
I also agree that it would have been better to just say three tasks needed to be completed. Each boy could have completed one, and then they could have completed the last one together. That way, they both are involved in the resolution of the arc - whatever that may be.
I also don't care if Sam doesn't do the tasks, but as you said, I would want it to be a complete team effort. I definitely don't want to see Sam research and then just send Dean to do the task w/the guest star or recurring character.
Again, though, I would have preferred that the boys complete the tasks together. Oh well!
which ends up with
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Of course Dean is. I mean he should be after all they have been through, but now Sam gets to tell Dean that he is worth more than Sam.
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Ensuring that Sam gets to look things up in books then Dean gets to have adventures and Sam gets less time onscreen then ever, but with explanation.
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See above, Sam performs no useful place in the storyline.
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Because throwing your son out of the house, wanting your son dead, and sending him away after a fight when you are going to die makes a relationship so uncomplicated.
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HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Years of one emo tear, ranting about well everything makes Dean unemotional. Sam never once showing fear about going into the Cage and keeping 24/7 hallucinations at bay by pressing his palm is the height of emotion.
Yes percysowner we hear the tone in your voice, for Chuck's sake please give it a rest! please!
I love both brothers, and I know you passionately love Sam, but come on.......
Henry Winchester had no impact on me emotionally, so fail there. While I thought the character was intriguing and the storyline kinda good, I just felt no emotional connection to him. Abbadon was pretty cool though.
I also have to disagree with the comments about Sam, from the way he was going to run towards Henry when Abbadon planted an arm in his stomach, it looked to me like he probably thought Dean and Henry had a plan. (They kind of did too) And immediately after Dean frees his hands, he's saying "This is a bad idea," which makes me think he's going to run for Henry the moment he's free, and then Dean tells him "Shut your mouth, let's go" Hell, I thought there was a plan when Dean said that, so it's possible right? I didn't mind Sam not reaching out to Henry either. It was actually rather natural. Your grandfather who you knew nothing about jumps out of a closet, you need a day or two (or a week) to get your brain to wrap around it.
With Dean being open to Henry, I agree with Bamboo24- it's perspective that's important. Henry knows nothing about John or the boys or their internal battles. Of course Dean would be gung-ho about saving Sam! No matter the conflicts between them.
Also, Sam had that forgiving-John speech in- was the episode called The Song Remains the Same?-and he knows John did the best he could given the circumstances, but that doesn't make John Father of the Year. I thought that's all there was to his comments on John in this episode. Kinda confused about Dean though, although I suppose it's only right for Dean to defend John especially to HW .
A bit weirded out by the "All I see in our family tree is a lot of dead." Which is kind of what Sam was saying in 8.01- "There's nothing like the family business, the whole family being dead". I didn't think Dean was going to echo that sentiment.
Totally interested in the "supernatural motherlode". That could be interesting. And I like the idea of that place being Sam and Dean's home base. Especially since other hunters won't know about it. Less intrigued about the Men of Letters thing. And the Knights of Hell. Unless they all come marching.
Gotta love Baby. Warp-drives and auto-repair, that car can do ANYTHING. And, groan, I didn't like the ending. No chick-flick moments, show, you promised.
Agreed! I had no problems w/anything Sam said about John in this episode, and he certainly didn't come off as angry to me. Sam was very matter-of-fact about John actually. He has never thought John hung the moon and stars like Dean did, and even though he better understands why John did the things he did, he doesn't suddenly think John handled everything perfectly. I'll just say this: none of Sam's comments gave me pause or anything.
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I didn't find anything off w/Dean re: John either. Aside from Sam, Dean would always defend John to someone, esp. a grandfather who purportedly "abandoned" John.
I did find it odd that Dean wasn't a bit more understanding of Henry when he learned what happened, but he did turn around.
Loved the ending. It wasn't too chick-flicky, IMO.
I'm going to go with this because this is the only part that REALLY bothered me on the second watch.
First of all, there´s no such thing as "too much info in one episode" for me. As I said before, for me this season is been even more boring than season 7 and one of the reasons (along with many others) is the slow pacing. The tablet myth arc isn´t that interesting either and we we finally are getting something juicy and INTERESTING related to the Winchester family no less, something personal you all complain?? What´s wrong with you people? (I´m not saying this in a harsh way, so please, don´t be offended ;))
I always thought th Winchester family was related to the supernatural. I remember watching the episode when Michael told Dean that their father´s bloodline is special and I thought "I bet my right nut that the Winchesters are not normal". We finally get an answer and I´m happy.
I´m sorry Ardeospina, I have to disagree with you in some points:
I think their dad´s part of the family (if it´s well played in the future) is even more interesting than Mary´s. As much as I liked it, they were just hunters.Men of Letters and Hell Knights? Oh yeah, sounds cool.
I don´t know why some of you find surprising Dean´s overprotective speech. They have issues which need to be worked out (are you listening writers?), but of course Dean wants to save his brother no matter what because he loves him. So what, he´s hurt because Sam didn´t look for him and he stops caring about him for that? That´s not Dean, the overprotective speech is SO in character, even when they fight.
The bullet thing... I think it´s not new to the show coming up with new and cool ways to fuck up demons. In season 1 they never used a rifle loaded with rock salt before until the Hook Man episode, despite all the years the had been hunting. Same thing with the devil´s trap and torching demon bones. So... nothing new here. I actually think it´s pretty cool coming up with all those new things. I imagine Dean and Sam thinking "what if we do this and this, will it work?"
I agree there are a few plot holes, but in this epi they have been waaaayyy less worse (is this well said? god my bad english is showing again) than other episodes. Ignoring Sam´s past experiences and the bond he has with is brother it´s been a HUGE plot hole this season, so no, those don´t piss me of as much of that one did.
Ardeospina, I agree with you in one thing: why a lot of characters have daddy issues in this show? Sam, Dean, Bobby, Jo, Castiel, Gabriel, Lucifer, Michael... Maybe the writers have daddy issues as well and they´re expressing themselves, I don´t know.
In resume, I really enjoyed this epi. I feel that finally we´re getting something interesting this season and the brothers act like family again. Baby steps, but they are getting there.
Just like you, I find this tablet stuff incredibly boring. It's even more boring than the Leviathans last year, and Sam and Dean are even more removed from this year's overarching arc. I have felt very "meh" about each episode this season. None have struck a chord w/me. They've all just been "okay" or "all right." I definitely wouldn't clamor to re-watch ANY of the episodes prior to this one. ATGB, was magnificent in comparison . . . a true gem in an otherwise awful (IMO) season.
I would have much rather seen an entire 10-12 episode arc about Henry Winchester and the Men of Letters than ANYTHING we've been shown so far. I like Supernatural better when Sam and Dean are important to the main arc. Who cares what happens to these tablets? I honestly couldn't care less about them. To me, the show doesn't work as well when they have these large arcs that really have no significance to the main characters. It's not personal for them. That's where the show fails. This was personal, which is why the episode really worked for me.
Plus, I didn't notice any glaring plot holes in the episode. Nothing stood out for me so I guess I just don't remember every detail about the show like I thought I did. Hahaha! I completely forgot about that guy telling John to say hi to his father in ITB, but then I haven't re-watched ITB in years so I have an excuse
And the devil's trap on the bullet is up there w/the backwards exorcism, IMO. A really cool thing to do. Hey, I've never read a comment from anyone suggesting the boys put devil's traps on bullets so it's not that farfetched to me that Sam and Dean and no one else had thought of it before.
I couldn't agree more w/your last paragraph. This episode actually sparked my interest in the show. Period. I'm not sure my interest will last, but at least I'm somewhat interested in what happens next.
And as you said, I could have never upset w/Dean showing concern for Sam or the brothers acting like family. I don't care if Dean is upset w/Sam; it was nice hearing him say he wasn't leaving Sam out to dry. This whole rift has been contrived, OOC (on Sam's part) nonsense from the start! The sooner we move away from that, IMO, the better! Ideally, we'd also soon learn Sam had investigated Dean's disappearance and then got (bad) intel that Dean was dead. That way, we could bury this whole OOC arc of Sam not caring enough about Dean to investigate his disappearance!
All I can say is I will take my brother moments (since they so rarely occur anymore) when I can get them. I got the boys sitting down and eating together two weeks ago, Sam agreeing to LARP w/Dean last week, and the brothers working together this week w/a helping of Dean's determination to save Sam on the side. Yay! Progress!
I'm keeping my expectations very low. I was too disappointed by the lack of follow through w/Sam's story last year. So, if nothing comes of this marvelous episode, I won't be too disappointed.
Like you, I've not had much interest in "world ending" scenarios like the Apocalypse, Leviathans and God's tablets. The brothers in those are manipulated and pulled this way and that and have little freedom to act for themselves or on their own and being responsible for the end of times? I loved the episodes where they took the initiative and saved people and hunted things and made a big difference to many and knew it and were proud of what they did. The apathy and depression suffered by them in the last few seasons is so very depressing to me as well.
I had the feeling that things were going the wrong way as soon as Cas showed up in "Lazarus Rising". I have grown to love Cas, but even so, that was the start of the overblown archs that are still continuing. That's why I love the filler episodes the best. They are Sam and Dean doing their thing they do best on their own with no help from angels or demons.
Don't get me wrong. Still love the show for the brothers and keep hoping the closeness they once had would return, along with the teasing, snark, spats and physical fights and "Bitch" and "Jerk"!
And bring back Bobby and Gabriel. Gabe should be easy to bring back as Cas has returned about 4 times. Get Chuck back upstairs and doing some hoodoo and they both can return. Big mistake to kill off Bobby!
All this is just my humble opinion. No offense to anyone meant.
I thought the same thing in S5 but we never got an answer. So to me this wasn't reconning it was filling in a blank.
Quoting lala2:
I have enjoy this season, despite my big issues with the Sam storyline, but I completely agree with you the story is better when they have a real connection to the mytharc.
Dean being protective for Sam is because he LOVES him and always has and always will, despite Sam not looking for him or despite their fighting (which is nothing new with brothers). It is ingrained into Dean from childhood and will never never not be a part of him. We KNOW that.
What I have missed this season, is Sam caring for Dean in that way, in spite of misunderstandings and false perceptions. That is getting better lately. I just want to see Sam's love for Dean shown on screen. Not mushy crap but what we used to see way back when. That is the foundation of this series and the reason we are all so tied emotionally to these two guys and their relationship. It must be so or there wouldn't be so much in-fighting in the fandom. There just wouldn't be any fans.
As long as the brothers act like family again and show their affection in tiny little ways I will take anything they want to throw at me in the way of plot.
I agree. Baby steps are welcome in this area.
Those writers! What can you do? Its a rollercoaster of ups and downs. Thank goodness the boys seem to be mellowing out and I hope that escalates into a relationship that doesn't have me clenching up at the end of episodes.
Well...here I was going to say.. yes, you are right, the writers have a lot of weirdness coming out of Sam's mouth lately and it has somewhat blocked some of the things he has been doing, showing his affection for Dean in these little caring ways. The most recent (and most awesome) was the "shall we" comment in LARP... Sam SO did that because he knew Dean wanted to so badly. AWS!
And that doesn't mean I feel the show doesn't need supporting or recurring characters, but the main arc should ALWAYS, IMO, be focused on Sam and Dean in some significant way.
I just enjoy watching this show. It makes me happy. I don't know what's wrong with ya'll with all the nit picks. I mean it's a TV SHOW not a documentary.
Anyway, I'll read this site later, right now I don' t want to spoil the afterglow. Going to download an watch again at twice.
It makes sense to me. Dean knows Sam. He grew up w/Sam. He was Sam's caretaker for much of his life. He was much more a father to Sam than a brother. Plus, what Henry was proposing could have potentially caused Sam and Dean to cease to exist. Dean wasn't willing to take that chance.
I thought it was amusing when Dean got all on his high horse when he told Henry They stopped the apocolpse. Well as Henry said if he went back maybe the apocolypse would never have been started.
I really enjoyed this episode: three Winchesters, some brotherly concern and a devils trap on a bullet, awesome. A whole lot of new information to intrigue us, where is it all going to lead?
Favourite quote: Dean - 'So we're the Jedi to your Yoda.' lmfao
I've always thought that Sam should have been the one to take over Bobby's role as the brains of the hunter community, and this episode sets that possibility up perfectly. (Unfortunately, I think rather than go this route, they'll elevate village idiot Garth to that role and it'll be another lost opportunity for no good reason at all.)
It also put both brothers at the rightful head of the hunting community, something that should have been done once the old guard (John, Bobby, Rufus) died.
For these two reasons, and the big, big expansion of the storytelling potential, I can easily overlook an angel feather in the trunk of the Impala, no mention of the brothers' unresolved issues, or wonder whether or not John's mother remarried a mechanic after Henry disappeared.
I liked learning what Dean now thinks about John, an unanswered question I've had for years. Last time we heard, John was a deadbeat Dad in Dean's eyes. There seems to be a realistic acceptance on Dean's part now.
It's also nice to know that Dean will give up everything for the hunt, except Sam. Now I'd like to see that shown on Sam's part in a future episode.
Please Show, drop ALL the 'sucky lives" speeches and let the brothers get on with their 'legacy.'
Henry was a good character and well casted. I know, storywise, he had to die, but I'd like to see more good characters like this stick around and less of the ones we have now. The show has not traded up for the characters they killed off.
gotta tell you though imo the whole angel demon thing got boring after season 5.
really looking forward to where this season going with all those new informations..
although sad that i will never get to see what sam .really did in dean's absence.
sam as the head of men of letters and dean as head of hunters......
I agree with this view. I could easily see Sam as the head of the research/library branch against the dark, and Dean as the head/trainer of the hunters.
This episode also made me rethink about Samuel and Deanna's comments about John. Did they think he wouldn't be good enough for their daughter/hunter because he was from a family of mechanics, or is that what she thought? I don't remember hearing Samuel confirm that he agreed with that view. Or, did they know about his legacy, and that one of the Men of Letters would be unable to handle the life of a hunter because they were too "wimpy"? (Just like Henry's view of hunters was that they were "apes".) Otherwise, I would have that a Vietnam-era, Marine veteran would have shown enough courage to be able to handle things as a hunter. (I haven't watched the episode in a while, so I might have misremembered some things.) I'm sure someone will correct me, if I am wrong.
I really enjoyed last week's "LARPing and the Real Girl" for the sheer fun of it. These episodes have made me rethink some of the things I've seen in previous seasons. I may have to rewatch the DVDs, Darn my luck! If the new crew has managed to take what was believed to be canon and change it, while maintaining the rest, I will be very impressed. I AM impressed and enjoying the heck out of this season because it feels as though the season-long thread is there. I am really enjoying slowly peeling back the layers of the storyline. I've missed it the last 2 seasons, although I still enjoyed them because I enjoy the characters so much.
Also one last comment. The preview for the next episode made me sad, because I could just imagine how happy Bobby would have been in a place like that, with the boys.
Sam, you were a dope. You were an ineffective, sit on your hands throughout the episode, damsel in distress wannabe, dope; once again. With a demon on the loose, you decided to tell strangers that your brother has the key that a high level demon has travelled through time to get; why? Were you hoping to get a biscuit as a reward for being a good little boy or something? And you were surprised that the lady turned out to be a demon! And then, once your grandfather had been delivered into the hands of a demon, to save your goddamn life, you just turn your back and walk out the door with barely a word of objection. How very noble of you. Damsel in distress is actually too honourable of a title for you after this episode.
Though at least Sam has come around to the ‘right’ way of thinking (for now). Strange that he’ll fight tooth and nail against his destiny, but he’ll seemingly embrace his legacy. Don’t they both lead in the exact same direction and to the exact same thing?
At this stage, Dean is actively turning me off the show. I don’t find him badass or snarky, I find him aggressive, arrogant and grating and I’m sorry, but I cannot listen to another episode where there is nothing but ‘woe are we, we've suffered so much’, pompous, judgmental hypocrisy coming out of his mouth. (Was there talk of a silent episode? Dear God, please let there be a silent episode!) Seriously, he lambasts people for not putting duty first and then he lambasts people when they do put duty first. He preaches the importance of saving family yet he dismisses others who want to save their family. He gets in the face (and refuses to shake the hand) of the father of a man he himself has been crapping on for years. “All I see in our family tree is a whole lot of dead.” You know, isn’t this what your brother said at the start of the season and as I recall you jumped on him for it. Now Dean is the endorsing choice to Henry when all season long he’s been pushing responsibility and duty on Kevin and Sam.
But at least Henry had earned the respect of Dean at the end of the episode. It’s too bad that it seems the only way you're worthy of Dean's respect is if you die (and even then, maybe not!) Huh, it seems that Dean's 'respect' is the equivalent of Sam's 'peen'. Who knew!
The ending. The mawkish, cringe-worthy Disney ending ‘You’re Winchesters. As long as we’re alive there’s always hope.’ Oh for the love of God......
Angels feathers in the boot of the car? I’m sure that idea will spawn of a thousand fanfictions but seriously, is that where Castiel now travels or did they ride around with an angel feather in the trunk as well as the trenchcoat? Oh God, is there a little shrine to Castiel (and maybe Benny) in the boot of the Impala and that’s why Dean is so protective of it?
I’d feel much more confident about the key/box storyline if (a) two of the storylines that have already been introduced this season (Sam/Amelia and Dean/Purgatory) were not so damn unfulfilling and (b) if I didn’t know that giving the Winchesters a key to the supernatural motherload is the very last thing you should do because they don’t exactly have the best track record of keeping things safe or secret when they’re entrusted to them. Also, there are tablets that close the gates of heaven, hell and Purgatory AND a key to a house/room/storage area that contains the motherload of all supernatural spells etc for the past thousand years. Whole lot of razzle dazzle going on this season.
Best bit about this episode; Henry. Now it’s a sad state of affairs when I find a one off character who is as dry as a bone to be more appealing than the two supposed ‘heroes’ but unfortunately, that’s the way the show has gone for me as of late.
I’m sorry but for me, this episode was laughable, and certainly not in a good way.
Percysowner, I'll agree with you on the fact that the characterisation of Sam and Dean has been inconsistent at times (for me it's been happening since S4, YMMV) over the years. I always felt that this issue has stemmed from the writers being determined to force the characters to fit a particular plot rather than having the plot growing from the characters. I have also been frustrated with various episodes when I've seen either Sam or Dean behaving like eejits or behaving out of character for no discernible reason.
I was going to say that it's probably an inevitability to have these sorts of issues in a long-running television series but then I think of programmes like Dexter and The Wire that have maintained quality all the way through their runs and I wonder why the Supernatural makers can't achieve a similar level of quality.
At the moment, over the entirety of S1-7, I've enjoyed more of Supernatural than I've been annoyed with (I'm still a bit undecided about S8). So I'm hanging on and hoping for the best. These days, if I feel really upset by what is happening on screen, I just go to my happy place i.e. S1-3 DVD Boxsets and fanfiction.
I've had problems with some part of each season, but I did generally enjoy them. This time I'm simply far more disconcerted by the direction they are taking the show. I'm glad others are enjoying it, but I'm having increasing issues.
ciar, this is kinda of an unfair statement. First your comparing different genres. Supernatural is world building. So they have to keep track of all the different species, what kills what, etc., in addition to all the normal fiction needs, such as background of all the characters. So that is a much more difficult tasks. Especially interweaving all the storylines together.
Second, The Wire had 60 episodes TOTAL in 5 season. Dexter averages 12 episodes a season and still won't hit hundred in its 8th season. That is a lot less info to keep track of in a much less complicated "world".
A better comparison would be Buffy at 144 episodes or X-Files with 203. Both which had excellent writers and both had different issues with long term storylines. Out of the 3, I think Supernatural has actually done the best job of wrapping up storylines and arcs even as it creates new ones. And they do really well with continuity, IMO. Not perfect, but considering how overlapping and complicated the story has gotten I think they've done well.
Now if they could just fix Sam. HA.
I gave up on watching Buffy (after 4 seasons) and the X-Files (after 3 seasons) simply because of the way I felt that the plots and characters got well out of hand. I really enjoyed the first seasons of both shows but I felt that subsequent seasons got too far away from the original premise, and characterisation, for me to stick with them.
So far, I still think that S1 is the best season of SPN (with S2 & 3 coming close second) and while I do feel that, on some issues, SPN has deviated from it's original 'simplicity' and brilliance I'm still watching SPN because it has kept some of the spark that attracted me to the show in the first place. I suppose that in my musings about Dexter etc., I'm expressing my worry that things might be about to change even more in SPN and that I might not enjoy those changes
I didn't see Sam as a damsel in distress at all. First of all, I believe he had to be really convincing and credible to the old man, since he was a stranger knocking in the door of the last man standing of a 1000 (?) years secret society holding dangerous knowledge. Very good at keeping secrets, then (I wonder, if keeping secrets is a genetic thing, John definetly got that gene). And he got the man talking! Good job at that. Also, the old man (forgot his name), although blind, was still a super smart and experienced guy, that managed to hide himself, but still, HE didn't notice that the old woman, with whom he possibly lived all his life with, was possessed. Why would Sam?
Secondly, that was a very powerful demon so there wasn't much San could have done at that moment except trust that Dean would be covering his ass - the service they do to each other. And for me, it was clear that Sam (or Dean) was not just leaving Henry - he was playing along Dean's plan! Even if he didn't know what was the plan, I'm sure he knew there was one. It's not an unprecedent MO for the brothers, playing up the wide eyed/innocent/defeated victim while improvising, trusting and picking up each others leads. Comes to mind to me The Usual Suspects, Route 666, Nightshifter, Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things, Crossroad Blues, Sin City, Heaven and Hell (still don't know how much Dean didn't know about Sam's plan before hand), Mommy Dearest (also don't know if Sam knew something about Dean drinking the phoenix ash thing), Defending Your Life, Repo Man... so many.... IMO, what happened in this episode was no different.
Also, I think you are being too harsh with Dean. Yes, he was aggressive, but he is a hunter and he has always been like this... I don't remember many complains until now. I also think they highlighted the agressiveness to mark the difference between the Men of Letters and Hunters - they even made HW puke!
Dean also puts duty first, but never before family (don't think he sees Amelia as family), and definately never before Sam. Henry was trying to save John from a grimm future, but it would most probably wipe Sam and Dean from existence and who knows what would happen then with the apocalypse plan they avoided. Also, having issues with your parents doesn't mean you stopped loving them. Dean might have knocked John from the pedestal he put him on as a child and sometimes made bitter remarks, but I don't believe he ever stopped loving John and defend him from whoever.
Didn't strike me as strange an angel feather in the car. They keep it for spells purpose, maybe? God knows what is used in the spells they cast - ingredients are becoming weirder and weirder, as of Kevin and the demon bomb.
Finally, didn't quite understand why you think the S&D can't keep the keys or why they are not heroes anymore. Can you explain?
Sorry, typed it super fast and didn't reread it - it must be full of mistakes.
My only problem with this is that Dean was FINE with the idea of Sam and him not being born in The Song Remains The Same. If Dean had said I've traveled back in time twice and tried to change the outcome and it just can't happen, I would have no problem. Instead he suddenly doesn't want Sam and himself to not be born. Frankly, it was very clear that if he and Sam weren't born then the Apocalypse would have to wait for 2 different perfect vessels, and would have been put off for who knows how long.
The continuity issues are really problematic for me with this one.
The issue was not that Dean suddenly didn't not want Sam and himself to be born, rather, it was the very real possibility that Henry would fail, and would not affect the future at all. Once Henry traveled back in time, Dean would have no control over the situation. With Sam's life on the line, Dean wasn't willing to take that chance. That's not a continuity issue.
I understood why both Sam and Dean were advocating for Mary to leave John so they weren't born. Things were pretty bleak then. Here, it didn't make much sense, and there was no guarantee that it would even work. The only real guarantee was that Sam was going to die w/o Dean's help.
And I got the impression HW was having an emotional reaction to what he just read in JW journal, like, he was feeling guilty for what happened to John because he left, thus, not thinking strait.
Legacy - people involved in the supernatural who didn't get into it due to the tragedies that bring in so many hunters.
I love that potential for a less bleak world view.
I didn't see Sam as a damsel in distress at all. First of all, I believe he had to be really convincing and credible to the old man, since he was a stranger knocking in the door of the last man standing of a 1000 (?) years secret society holding dangerous knowledge. Very good at keeping secrets, then (I wonder, if keeping secrets is a genetic thing, John definetly got that gene). And he got the man talking! Good job at that. Also, the old man (forgot his name), although blind, was still a super smart and experienced guy, that managed to hide himself, but still, HE didn't notice that the old woman, with whom he possibly lived all his life with, was possessed. Why would Sam?
Why wouldn't Sam? He's supposed to be the 2nd best Hunter out there....He's been tricked and has tricked others in the past. why wouldn't he show a miniscule amount of cautiona dn suspicion that there could be a possibility that one or both could have been possessed. Its happened hundreds of times in the past...remember Kevin's gf?
I'm one of the most gullible people around and I thought the guy was too forthcoming of information. The woman seemed too keen about the conversation. If it felt off to a non hunter that one of them was probably possessed then the thought SHOULD have occured to Sam...2nd best hunter int he world.
Sam should never have been so free with information. he should have been vague, non commital on anything to do with the key. I mean he didn't admit Henry was alive..why did he admit Dean had the key?
I'd rather Sam refused to give any answers forcing the demon to show hersefla dn when Sam still refused to talk she black smoked him to see what he knows.
As of the demon, he might have thought Abadon might have found the old man before him, maybe he didn't. I don't know. But if he did, I don't think stabbing them with the demon knife (if he was in possession of it) would be a good opener, since to these high ranked demons holly water doesn't work.
But the problem is Abaddon would have killed Sam after black smoking me. She killed very single person she did that to so it wouldn't make much sense if she suddenly didn't kill Sam after black smoking him.
I haven't re-watched yet, but I believe Sam hesitated a bit before answering. It's like he knew he probably shouldn't answer but did anyway.
Yes, he had to convince the elderly gentleman etc. However, at the point where Sam spilled about his brother having the key, he had already gotten all the information he needed from him so Sam did not need to divulge further in order to gain trust. Why on earth did Sam not just stop at ‘No’ when he was asked if he had the key?
Also, Sam has an advantage over the gentleman in that he is a hunter and is well versed in the ways of the demon. Sam knew that Abbadon was around and was looking for the box. Did he test the gentleman or lady when he came in? No. Did he utter a ‘Christo’ (something they did back in season 1)? No. Why did he not bring the knife, or the angel blade? They might not have killed Abaddon but they would have slowed her down (we saw that at the start of the episode) and given them the chance to escape. Sam went into the situation, questioned the witness and got the information, as he has many times. It was what followed that bothered me most; the idiocy of spilling that they were in possession of this hugely sought after box. It wasn’t necessary, made him look like an idiot and it led to him being something for a demon to make a trade with.
Quote: There’s not much that Sam can do in many of the situations that he’s been faced with but he has always tried to do something anyway. In this episode he didn’t even do that. Jeez, at the start of the season Sam was throwing out reverse exorcisms and this was after he hadn’t hunted for a year. He (or it might have been Dean) had the wherewithal to recite an exorcism into a mobile phone while questioning witnesses yet when he’s in a situation where there are demons out and about, he didn’t take any precautions. When captured, he didn’t try to negotiate, slip his ropes, make an escape off his own bat, roll out an exorcism or anything that we’ve seen him do the many times he’s gotten into desperate situations in the past. None of it might have worked but we’d have seen him try. We’d have seen him try to take responsibility for his own rescue instead of waiting around for someone else to do it.
Instead, we saw Sam walk past his (non-hunter) grandfather on his way to safety, utter a half assed apology and then keep walking. Sure, he might have been going along with ‘the plan’, but ‘the plan’ as far as Sam knew could have been to walk out the door and leave Henry behind and that IS different for Sam. By the time Sam got to Dean Henry was already with the demon, and still they kept walking. If, hypothetically speaking, the demon hadn’t closed the door, would they have left Henry alone in there? We certainly can’t say they wouldn’t; not this season.
And I gotta say, for a ‘very powerful demon’ that wouldn’t have been easy to kill; she was killed with remarkable ease at the end.
Quote: My issue with Dean this season is the overtness of his aggression; not in terms of physical aggression, which is par for the course with many hunters, but in his aggressive attitude towards people. He talks down to and berates them constantly. We saw it with Kevin two weeks ago, Henry this week, Garth in 8.06 and Sam for much of the early season. He was hostile toward Henry from the get-go in this episode and this continued even after it was revealed that the reason Henry ‘ran out’ on John was because he was dead.
Quote: First of all, I never said nor implied that Dean stopped loving John. Secondly, Henry had learnt that his son died at the hands of a demon. It’s quite probable that he was hoping to save him from more than just a grim future. I am however, bewildered at this about face in attitude from Dean in relation to John. Since season 3 he has been dumping on him. He compared Sam to John back in season 4 (was it season 4?) and he didn’t mean it as a compliment. He even named the shifter baby Bobby. Now in this episode, he gets all defensive at the mere thought that someone might think the same about John that he’s been thinking (and saying) about him for the past few years. Does Dean feel that he should be the only one who gets to cast judgment on people?
You do made a notable point about not seeing Amelia as family. Does this mean that he only ever puts those whom he sees as family, first? What about the family of others? What about Henry’s family or Kevin’s? What about Sam’s family, which could very easily have included Amelia? What about Adam? Just because Dean doesn’t see them as family does that mean they’re not worthy of note (and consideration)? (It will also pose an interesting conundrum in relation to Benny. Should he do a booboo, which will Dean put first; his family or his duty?)
What bothers me most is what comes across (to me) as the tremendous sense of entitlement that Dean seems to have this season, as if his pain and his wants take precedence over all others. In this scene, Henry had just found out that his son was killed by a demon and that he himself was going to die pretty soon yet when he tries to grasp something to give him strength ie his job, all he gets is a buttload of ‘Well, it’s a little late for that now’ and ‘You keep telling yourself that’ judgmental attitude. That’s not the Dean Winchester I know, and it’s not a Dean Winchester I want to know. Sam didn’t even try to comfort or talk to his grandfather (who had to have been devastated, confused and terrified at that stage), he just went to bed. That’s not the Sam Winchester I know, and it’s not a Sam Winchester I want to know.
Quote: Given Sam and Dean's past history I'd have issues with them having the key because they regularly consort with, shall we say, those who might use the key to get up to naughtiness. Garth is having them tracked, they summon Castiel regularly, Dean is buds with a vampire and Crowley has been known to find them with remarkable ease. If this key is as valuable and dangerous as they say it is then I'd rather it not be in the hands of people who regularly consort with that clientele.
I’m not sure that I can explain the bit about the 'heroes', Ale because I don’t believe that I said it. However, if you could point out where I did then I’d be happy to address it. Cheers.
I already stated here why I though this Sam situation was no different than many other episodes throughout the series, but, hey, if you still fell that way... it's ok, I guess. I already conceived Sam talked a bit too much about the Dean with the key thing, but that is all. As I said, introducing yourself to someone you need information from by attacking them is not a good start. And party tricks don't work with high ranked demons: only full on demon blood Sam worked on Lilith.
Abaddon was not killed. She was entrapped by a real cool trick.
For the record, I believe in was NEVER the plan to leave Henry behind. They knew Abaddon wouldn't let them go, they were just playing her: it WAS part of the plan catch her off guard, cut her head off with a bullet with a devil trap and trap her inside herself and put the body in cemment. As I said, cool! I never thought that before.
Yes, Dean is gruff - Purgatory effect still? But I always thought Dean tends to be blunt (his first reaction), then he mellows. And I love it. My husband is kind of like it, you can NEVER convince him at first try, I have to wait for him to cool off. Doens't bother me, though, I already know how he works! He is not Dean handsome level, though, but, hey, who is! Only Sam! (sorry, hubby, you are hot - love you!).
I criticize AND defend my parents, all at the same time, both always loving them. Can't see a contradiction here. Maybe this episode served to clarify that Dean is heading in a better understanding of John, as Sam.
Of course, I believe Dean should and does respect families in general - heck, they put themselves in danger to save people. But, really, when your familly doesn't come first? If they have to choose, it's clear to me that, for Dean, Sam comes before Amelia, Kevin, John, Henry, whoever. And for Sam, Dean comes before Amelia, Kevin, John, Henry, whoever. Do you doubt it? And it's not fair, making them answer who to choose - do they have to rank them, the order of "saving priority"?
Sam and Dean are hunters and hunted "depending on the day". I can't think of anybody else who would do better use of this key, though.
I didn't understand you "two supposed ‘heroes’" remark.
I'm glad to read from you, Tim, I love to read your comments. Sorry if sometimes I can't put the time it deserves to an answer, I'm kind of a slow writer.
Cheers!
He had no weapon on him, and we already saw that the weapons the boys did have were useless on Abaddon. He certainly couldn't have exorcised the demon w/his mind as some suggested. Sam cannot do that anymore. There was absolutely nothing Sam could do, so I'm not sure why he's being called a helpless DID.
Sam clearly wanted to help Henry. He told Dean leaving was a bad idea. I'm sure Sam was hoping Dean already had a plan to help Henry or that they could quickly regroup when outside to come up w/a plan. Sam wasn't included in the planning w/Dean and Henry. Under the circumstances, he did all he could do. Abaddon was quite powerful and strong. What could Sam have done?
I also disagree that Sam sat on his hands the entire episode. Sam, IMO, was very active in this episode. He was researching, questioning Henry, and getting intel just like Dean was. Sam wasn't just sitting around, doing nothing.
Plus, Sam saved his own life when he disclosed that Dean had the key. That was literally the only thing keeping him alive. If Sam hadn't answered, Abaddon would have done her neat smoke trick and just killed Sam. This way, she could presumably "trade" Sam for the box.
Yes, Dean was unwilling to listen to Henry, but he came around at the end. It was very in character for Dean. He reacted the same way to Adam and Samuel, Christian, and Gwen in S6. Dean is cautious and not too inviting or trusting of all these random relatives that pop up. I do think Dean regretted his comments to Henry so I would disagree that it took Henry's death for Dean to come around. When Dean went to get Henry, he had already, IMO, changed his opinion. I liked Dean's exchange w/Henry. Dean wasn't too abrasive or obnoxious to me.
IMO, this was the most "in character" I've seen both boys. Dean hasn't been as OOC as Sam, so I guess it really just applies to Sam. He was very in character in this episode, IMO.
lala2, it seems you and I are on the same page for once, and that's really cool. Glad you liked the episode. I agree with your comment above.
Thanks! I really enjoyed this episode. I'm not sure if I'll enjoy any others, but this one was a winner for me!
I find it frustrating that the writers put Sam in situations where he COULD have a conversation with a character who has meaning in his life and he just doesn't - here it was with Henry, previously it was with Castiel on the park bench and with Charlie and that is just the past 3 episodes.
I love speculating but I am also happy to take the storyline I am given (in general) and I don't want storylines changed to suit me because that isn't how storytelling works.
I just would like to see these things included because they make the story more interesting for me. I feel more engaged with the characters when I understand their motivations.
And I must admit - w/r/t your first paragraph - I barely remember the episodes that came before this one. I have NOT been enjoying S8 at all. In fact, the season has been pretty horrible, IMO. I can't bring to mind many incidents of Dean saving Sam this year. I remember him doing it a lot in the first seasons, but no particular incidents come to mind. In fact, when I think of an incident where someone needed rescuing - two times w/Dean last year are the only ones that I remember. One time, Dean had a gun, but he just looked at it and did nothing w/it. It was very odd. That happened on like two occasions.
I don't pay much attn to the fighting scenes (unless they are weird like the Dean ones I referenced above) in the sense of noting who rescues whom. I'm vaguely aware but it doesn't really register. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary to me yesterday.
Just to clarify, my comment wasn't really meant to imply that he was either of these things. I guess I didn't put it very well.
I just have always liked the way the guys are both fighters, both good at it, both able to think and problem solve and in different episodes have been able to help each other out. I would like it to continue that way, it was like that in season 6, I don't feel that it is like that now. But that is just my opinion.
This was his grandfather in the flesh his fathers father and they had him walk away like he couldnt string two words together let alone a genuine emotional conversation with Henry.
Definitely a missed opportunity but not enough to sour me on the episode.
JMO.
I do believe if the Henry arc had been dragged out or had simply replaced the horror (IMO) that was Sam/Amelia, then we could have seen them learn more about each other and from each other. At the end, Henry had learned to appreciate hunters. That would have been , IMO, a much more interesting arc than what we got!
Was Sam a damsel in distress in those episodes? I don't think so, he was just caught by surprise. So why IN THIS ONE he is?
I am genuinely at a loss as to how Sam could have rescued himself so I'm hoping someone will provide an example of what they thought he could do.
And as you said, I've never seen either brother as a "damsel in distress" in any situation. I just don't get it.
Agreed! I believe Sam knew Dean had another plan up his sleeve. Honestly, when don't they have a Plan B or at least some thoughts about one? Hahaha!
There are countless episodes where one of the boys is standing next to a demon, hands tied, waiting for an exchange or "rescue." Now all of the sudden Sam is a damsel in distress? I also want to see comments of what Sam could have done differently.
Yes, I'm hoping Alice or anyone else who feels this way will address this. I honestly have no clue how Sam could have gotten out of that situation. And I know some may say he should have never told them Dean had the key to begin with, but putting that aside, how could he have rescued himself? I'm really curious at to what people think.
I agree 100%. I am suprised so many are saying Sam was a "Damsel in Distress." WHAT? What was Sam suppose to do differently? This scenerio has played out tons of times in 8 seasons, with both Sam and Dean in the "damsel" role, and it played out very similiar. Usually there is a plan by one brother, etc. etc. etc. Seems like more complaints just by people who did not like the episode.
True.
I actually can't wait to re-watch this episode. The last time I felt that way was HCW last year!
Quote: You had me in stitches with that line, thank you. I was thinking the same thing!
And now back to our show, where the key presumably opens something.
I am aware now that the spoiler tag isn't working. I'll get that restored, but that should only be used for slight spoiler statements of a sentence or less. All out discussions need to go to the spoiler section.
LOVED it.
I love the 'Men of Letters' -- I love that it makes the Winchesters unique among hunters again.
Plot holes? Meh I've seen worse.
Before the episode, I was worried about the potential retcon of a 'mechanic from a family of mechanics' - but since the MoL was obviously a secret organization that didn't pay the bills, there were still mechanics, I'm sure. And if not on Henry's side, possibly on his wife's side - and we now know that John's mother raised him without Henry.
Maybe there was a step father or a maternal grandfather that was John's 'old man' in ITB. Whoever it was, Dean and Sam never knew him.
I don't think there's going to be a tablet in the safe house.
I can't wait to see it .
I feel like Sam and Dean were protecting John and themselves with Henry. I liked Henry but he wasn't very forthcoming with his information and he had an agenda. It could be possible that in the '50, the Men of Letters was a "secret society" things were done and seen differently back then.
Abbadon made me think of Crowley and how desperate he really is to get control of these tablets. Perhaps with finding the tablets other doors are being opened and the box and key are part of that.
I like Supernatural for what it is. There have been episodes where I was just eh and others that I loved. I have watched and re watched episodes but honestly I don't usually try to dissect why Dean did this or Sam did that. I do think Sam needs to have more Oomph in this season. I really don't like Amelia but I didn't like Lisa either so maybe no female really measures up for the boys (except Jo).
I think no matter what, no matter how mad or hurt the boys are at each other they are still going to protect each other until the end. This episode showed that.
It is really hard to incorporate new ideas into an already established universe and I think they did a pretty good job (though I know a lot of people aren't in agreement with that). The fact that most everyone from the legacy group was dead and the last one was hiding out helps with the idea that no one had ever heard of the group before.
I thought that Henry Winchester was a really good addition to the story and for me the plot discrepancies could be pretty easily explained (his mother's family could have been mechanics, maybe he had an uncle who took over the role of father to the extent that people considered him 'the old man' to John). I saw there were some problems with people about John Winchester having 'daddy issues' and that there is no indication that he had any issues with his father. Maybe that is how it was phrased in the episode, but honestly the way John Winchester interacted with his sons COULD be seen to reflect him not having the most normal relationship with his own father - and your father vanishing when you were a child would seem to come under that category.
The legacy stuff was a bit of an info-dump but at least it moves things on a bit and I am interested to see where it is going. I like the idea that as the Winchesters' world gets more complicated they need more information to help deal with it. But I hope that a Watcher / Slayer dynamic where Sam doesn't fight any more and Dean doesn't think, is not what the writers are looking at, that would not be the show I signed up for.
It was good to see a monster that was hard to defeat as well! Some new fighting techniques are always good. The bullet thing was great - like several of the new tricks introduced this season.
I am totally in the group of people who enjoyed the episode. I really want to see this bunker!
I really thought you were pulling an early April Fool's Day joke with your review. I realize you were serious when there was no "gottcha" moment. I could not disagree more with your review, but I respect it. I am one who believes the "plot holes" can be explained, or will be. This was a season/SERIES high for me, and I can't wait to see where we go from here. I guess I don't know why after the last 2 seasons, everyone cannot enjoy this season (heck MAUREEN RYAN stopped reviewing the show last year after trashing what the show turned into!). It's a bummer for me to come to my favorite SPN site and it be the only one with such a negative response (and even from ALICE!). My thoughts on your bullet points:
• I disagree, I was able to keep up with the interesting new developments. It was almost like a season premier. How is a one liner about Ruby’s knife an origin story about it? And John’s “father issues” are not so much John’s as Sam and Dean’s (angry John did not have a father). The fleshing out will come in time. It was new information for the boys too.
• Mary’s reveal was great too, but I didn’t blink for the first 10 minutes of “As Time Goes By.”
• “I guess Dean’s gun got restored…” could be said about 20 different episodes.
• Probably more crippling to Sam and Dean than to John. The patron telling John to say hi to his father? Maybe someone that at one point met John and Henry, and (being it’s personal business) didn’t know Henry was gone? Maybe John had a whole backstory to others, to keep being a Hunter a secret? (nip picking on this one Ardeospina, you REALLY hated this episode).
• Did you miss Dean say how it hurts every time he reads John’s journal? OF COURSE Sam and Dean will always have conflicting love/anger for John. Flip a coin for their thoughts on Daddy, depending on their mood at any moment, or what memories come up. Heck my opinion of my father changes too, but I love him to death in each opinion.
• I find it odd you missed how the second Henry flops out of the closet, and says John Winchester, the boys go into full “Team Winchester” mode, have each other’s back, are on the same page, they are in sync the entire episode. When has Dean said “you know what, I’m mad at my brother right now, so that demon that has him captive, well he’s on his own! I’m gonna go pout!” And, did you forget he was telling this to his GRANDFATHER. I thought it was a beautiful moment, and this episode shows the second there is a family element, the boys are immediately in “Team Winchester” mode, even when their Facebook status is “It’s Complicated.”
• The Henry / bookworm comment, what? I don’t get it. Stab in the dark, but he’s crafty? He’s smart? He’s been in that situation before, being a Men of Letters? He likes handcuffs?
• With the number of Angles the boys have come across, if an Angel feather is something needed in a spell, it makes total sense the boys have one in their stockpile of goodies.
• Henry knew this, they didn’t. Yes it was cool, but come on, nit picking again! I still want to know where Sam learned to say a spell in reverse to put a demon BACK into a person as he did in the first episode of this season. NOTE: Henry is also smart and crafty, another response to the Handcuff trick!
• Abaddon and Crowley singing karaoke! GENIUS! (Islands In The Stream please)
• No.
• Adam who?
• I agree, no one is normal on this show. Come to think of it, everyone I know is not too normal……
• I also laughed my butt off at the boy band line.
• It was a Glass fixing/Gun fixing/Burger King ?
• AWESOME smoke spying!
Thanks for the review, I am bummed you didn't like it. I have a feeling you will not like the rest of the season (series) as it sounds like the show is expanding on what happened in AS TIME GOES BY.
You cheered me up considerably, thank you!
Angry John did have a father. Whether he was his biological father or not that was referenced in In The Beginning we don't know, but he did have a father or father figure in his life growing up.
Also being honest, I’m getting a little weary of the idea that the 'fleshing out' will come ‘in time’. There are many things that have not been fleshed out, Purgatory and the Amelia storyline being key amongst them this season, and I feel that both storylines were weakened considerably as a result. The Sam Amelia storyline in particular suffered and it, even today, remains one that many fans are most unhappy with. Time could, and should, have been invested in that in order to make the relationship more palatable and relatable for these viewers. Similarly, time should have been invested in the explaining of Sam himself during that storyline, especially in light of the character defining act/decision he took in the aftermath of Dean’s disappearance.
I also believe that the Purgatory storyline suffered. It was an excellent vehicle to introduce Benny and their 'brotherly' relationship, but no more than that. At times it (for me) played out like a video game, with more emphasis on style than substance. We learned little about Dean while he was there. There was an awful lot introduced in Purgatory that has not been addressed and going by Singer’s latest interview, (spoiler) Only registered users can view hidden text!
Add to that, we have heard the words ‘in time’ being touted often, going back years, and that time rarely, if ever, came around. I no longer have confidence that things will be dealt with ‘in time’ because it seems that the showrunners now have newer, shinier toys they want to play with. I’m aware that you think that Carver and season 8 are the bee’s knees, Nate but I don’t. I’m not going to go into detail as to why because I know it’s not welcome but overall I am disappointed with this season so far and I have little confidence in the ability or inclination of Carver to right the wrongs and address what I feel to be the serious imbalance that he has created within the show. In relation to this particular situation, there is no need for the situation with Henry to be fleshed out. He came, he did his thing and he died. The aftermath of his visit is what is what is of concern now; not the relationship itself.
In past episodes guns got lost, stolen or damaged, all of which can be found, retrieved or repaired. It’s a bit harder to do that after it has been turned into feathers. I’m well aware that these are small things but these small things add up. When you’re watching the episode and you’re thinking ‘Well, didn’t that gun turn to feathers last week’, it does take you out of the moment. And the thing is, with these small ‘nitpicks’, if some yokel (that’s me, not Ardeospina) who watched at 5.30 in the morning on a crappy laptop notices these things, then how on earth is it that the professionals do not?
Henry disappeared when John was four (born in 1954, Henry disappeared in 1958) so if the patron did meet John and Henry then it must have been when Henry was around ie when John was a child. However, John was 19 in In The Beginning (1973) so why on early would the patron want John to say hi to his dad when said dad hadn’t been seen in 15 years? That’s not nitpicking, it’s a big, noticeable ‘wtf’. If the father referred to in In The Beginning was a stepfather then why did John never make mention of him to his sons? He evidently had no problem telling Sam and Dean that Henry ran out on them so why then not divulge this possible additional information? If John’s mother remarried (which she might have done) then did she (and John) not take her new husband’s name or did John change his name back to Winchester at a later stage? Why would he do that if he hated his father? How come, in all the mentions of Winchester and Campbell lineage throughout the seasons, there was never mention of a possible stepfather?
I don’t believe Ardeospina said that Dean didn’t love John. However, his attitude towards him in this episode is a complete 180 from the last time he spoke of him, when Dean was shocked and almost offended to think that he might be like John. We saw nothing in the interim that could lead us to think that Dean had softened in attitude toward his father so I too find this new attitude a leap. Hypothetical situation, if we didn’t see or hear of Benny again until episode 21 and then when they met up Sam is all friendly with him, it would take a great leap of faith to just accept that without question. We’d want to know how he got over the issues etc and without insight, we can’t do that. For me, the same applies to Dean and John’s relationship. I feel that speech would have been better coming from Sam who had already come to peace with his father’s actions and decisions, and let that also be a catalyst for Dean’s understanding of his father. Add to that, Dean’s words and tone were hugely defensive and aggressive, which is unusual because Henry had not said anything negative about John.
In Good God, Y’all when Sam is captured Dean chooses to stick with the job at hand so while he might not have used the words you quoted in your post, the intent was there. ‘I’m on the job, Sam is on his own for now’ so it’s not as if duty before family hasn’t been done before.
It would have been nice if Henry’s ability to be able to manoeuvre out of handcuffs with such ease was addressed because to be able to do what he did suggests that it was more than just ‘crafty’. Henry stated that the only action he ever saw was in books. However, to be able to do what he did here (a) takes practise and (b) suggests that he had been in plenty of situations where he needed to be able to get out of handcuffs, something very contrary to what he said about himself.
It’s never been mentioned that angel feathers are needed for spells prior to this so if they were needed you’d think they would have been, especially as it would have been a reason to bring Castiel back into the action. Apart from the fact that I find the whole idea of angels molting or Castiel being plucked to be rather comical, I’m going to find keeping angel feathers in the trunk of a car to be a tad disturbing; especially in light of what keeping the trenchcoat and also Ben’s Halloween mask in the trunk of the car meant.
I genuinely can’t see why people can’t not have Daddy issues on this show. The amount of characters with father issues, Sam, Dean, Adam, Mary, John, Bobby, Castiel, Benny, Lucifer, Michael etc is getting farcical at this stage.
Adam is their biological (half) brother. Last we heard he was stuck in the Cage with Michael and Lucifer.
Sorry Nate, I'm having difficulty with your final comment. A Burger King? As in a drive thru window/gun repair shop? Ah, okay..... You know, once again, it’s a small thing but like I said, they do add up and there were an awful lot of them in this episode, many of which simply were not needed and did take me (and possibly others) out of the story. My first thought when I saw Henry break the car window was ‘Jeez, don’t the windows of the Impala smash very easy.’ Surely Henry shooting Abbadon from that range would have either (a) sent the bullet right through her skull or (b) shattered on impact thus breaking the devils trap. I also wondered as to why they couldn’t shoot the demon from a distance, given that is what guns were designed for. (And it’s strange, for all the comments posted about how Sam was responsible for Martin’s death; has there been a single one posted about the role that Dean’s plan played in bringing about Henry’s death?) I thought it was ridiculous that Sam did not test the elderly couple when he got there and then stood passively and silently by while waiting to be rescued. Now there’s talk of a library of supernatural for the brothers when they already have access to two they rarely even use! I’m aware that you might feel that highlighting issues such as this is nitpicking or whatever but to be honest, I’d rather see nitpicking than handwaving things off.
I also need to address a different issue. On another article, you took a poster to task for what you perceived to be offensive and colourful language used in relation to the Robert Singer interview. However, on two separate occasions on this article, you’ve made mention that you believed Ardeospinas speculations on the episode to be an April Fool’s Joke. Do you not think it rather insulting to say that the thoughts of the writer (and presumably the thoughts and opinions of those who agree with her) are potentially laugh-worthy you find them so hard to believe?
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I did think of this. Either they were taking a huge risk there, or else something about a bullet with a demon trap carved on it ensured it got lodged in the brain.
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Damn, that's a good point. Of course, perhaps they figured it was better to be close, lest she see the bullet coming and stop it like that demon did during S3's "Maleous Maleficarum" (forgive my spelling mistakes, there). There HAD to be a distraction in order for them to get a shot like that off.
It is amazing, isn't it, the different reactions to similar events depending on whether Sam or Dean do them?
I have watched that scene a few times now and it seems clear to me that Dean was going to use his grandfather either voluntarily or involuntarily to rescue Sam. There is no point at which he says 'ok I have explained the issue to you, if you won't go along with my plan I will let you go.' Even the 'can you slow Abbadon down?' line implies that it is a suicide mission for Henry if he agrees to do it (and basically sending him to his death anyway if he doesn't agree).
Re: Henry - Dean did the best he could have in the circumstances to save his brother. If he hadn't done so, people would be complaining about how Dean clearly doesn't care about Sam anymore and that Sam should just get his own car, go off on his own, or leave the show.
Re: Martin - Sam did the best he could have in the circumstances to save someone he loved, to make sure that what happened to Jess didn't happen to Amelia. And yes, that meant leaving another hunter in the woods alone while he took off in a panic. If Sam hadn't done that, people would be complaining about how OCC it was for Sam not to be concerned that Amelia might be burning on the ceiling, and how the writers are forgetting canon and writing Sam negatively.
...oh wait...those complaints come regardless.
The point is, the brothers are human and make questionable decisions when the ones they love are in danger (demon deals, anyone? shout out to demon blood?) The ethics of each situation are certainly left up to discussion, but there's no real double standard here.
True .
Well, I disagree there, that Sam is the only character being damned by fans on this board. There seems to me to be quite the mix of views. Perhaps the comments questioning Sam's actions stand out more to you because it bothers you so much. That's understandable.
Look I'm not saying that there aren't fans out there who are gonna bash Sam or bash Dean no matter what happens, or who will defend one over the other. But that is those fans' unbalanced interpretation of what's going on in the show. It's not objective reality. But my understanding of what you keep insisting is that the show actually tries to paint Sam in a bad light, while painting Dean in a good light. That's not the objective reality, either.
Bashers exist on both sides of the aisle, just as defenders of each brother will find a way to excuse whatever they do exist. Or, it could be that differing viewpoints make people weight some actions differently than others. There's definitely a line there. I've found almost no fans that are completely objective, and there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has their leanings. I do think that once it starts becoming a conspiracy theory that the PTB hates your favorite, it's pretty fair away from objective.
Dean fans, Cas fans, and Sam fans have all reached this point at some point where it's believed the PTB are deliberately trying to damage their favorite--the important thing is to find your way back, because once you start looking for ulterior motives within the show to slam your favorite, you're going to find them whether they're there or not.
Well said, emmau. You summed up what I was getting at more eloquently than I did or could have.
Admittedly I too, worry sometimes, and as a Cas fan, well he could get killed off whereas Sam and Dean never will ... can you imagine, I mean that would totally be the end of the show as we know it. At the end of episode 2 this season, for instance, I was momentarily really pissed at Dean because they were intimating that Dean left Cas to die bloody in Purgatory but then calmed down and realised it was too early to jump to conclusions and Dean wouldn't do that. By the vampirates episode with Dean telling both Benny and Cas that Cas was coming with no matter what and I realised that I was right not to assume anything.
BTW ... Also not one of the Cas fans that thinks he needs to be in every episode because the show is mostly about Sam and Dean and it should be that way. I am slightly peeved he probably won't be in an episode until next month after we've gone to the Emerald Bay Comicon to see him but I've also really enjoyed the last two episodes and am down for the ride, wherever it takes the show.
Yes, but they cleared Dean of any disloyalty or of leaving Castiel in Purgatory by episode seven. When Cas fell from grace we didn't know about it until mid season six. Cas didn't do anything bad, bad until the final episode of season six, "died" in episode 2 of season seven and when he came back Cas gained automatic absolution by taking Sam's insanity. Heck, Cas got the woobie status that Sam was never permitted to have by actually being allowed to act insane after he cured Sam. All Sam got was hand rubs. And this season, Castiel has been absolved in advance of any wrong doing because we have seen that he is being controlled by Naomi. And Sam? We have been shown a Sam who didn't look for Dean and it has been shown to be a bad thing. We have been shown a Sam who left Kevin to fend for himself. Sam has been given no absolution for the audience. Dean may "forgive" him for not looking, but the audience hasn't even been given a hint as to why Sam did what he did, other than being callous and a bad brother. And the cherry on the cake is that Sam has still not been absolved from Ruby. EVERY OTHER CHARACTER has been shown to be guilt free, only Sam is having his past faults thrown in his face.
You can say that Dean has forgiven Sam for Ruby and the ghost just brought up any old resentment, but the WRITERS made sure to shove Ruby in our faces. They didn't have to have Dean go back to bloody season four, but they chose to. They chose to remind everyone that Sam is bad, Sam is tainted by demons, Sam can't be trusted by Dean and Sam must never forget his sins or be forgiven for them. That is my issue. Cas got off from killing half his brethren because he was made sympathetic to the audience. Dean was shown to have not abandoned Cas. Benny has been shown to be a good huggable vampire who only wants to live in peace. And Sam is still the evil person who the audience must not forgive. And I'm tired of that and I'm running out of patience.
What is also troubling is Carver doesn't see this as a problem. He thinks it's perfectly fine. Everything we've been shown about Sam tells us that he would search for Dean so if he doesn't do that, Carver should have been prepared to tell the audience why, to give a reason for Sam's otherwise OOC behavior. The FBs should have been used to show us how Sam's world imploded or how he was devastated by Dean's disappearance. We should have been shown much more than Sam's relationship with Amelia. That's not where the story was; the story was in Sam's radical decision to abandon Dean without even a preliminary investigation.
I'm just upset because this could have been a decent story. It didn't have to alienate Sam from viewers or portray him as uncaring or inconsiderate of his brother. We could have gotten a genuine story about someone who just couldn't handle it anymore, who just had a breakdown or something. The story didn't examine Sam on any level.
To this day, I will never understand why Sam couldn't have investigated Dean's disappearance AND get a girlfriend. Other than unnecessary conflict btw the boys and trashing Sam's character, there was no larger purpose behind Sam not looking for Dean. It's just something Carver said he wanted to explore, and then he didn't even explore it!
I'm sorry but I don't think any genuine thought has been put behind anything done with Sam this year !
The Ruby thing, well, the writers would almost be remiss not to bring up those past wrongs when they're dealing with a ghost killing people for past wrongs. Dean forgave him for that long ago and as a viewer I never really held it against him because he was misled by Ruby. But, its the biggest thing Dean was ever angry at Sam for, aside from Sam not looking for him, so it makes sense to include it. Do you think that Cas won't have his past thrown in his face by Dean or Naomi at some point before the end of the season even though he's been trying to right those wrongs just as Sam did? It's gonna happen and I'm expecting it but he kinda "over-reached" and he's probably going to have to pay for it just as Sam and Dean have had to. No, I'm not happy about this whole Naomi thing because it seems like even without her interference he'd want to help the boys and try and see what he could do to maybe fix Heaven but at the same time the whole mind-control thing makes for a much more intriguing, if not scary, story for him.
Additionally, questioning/assigning blame for Sam's actions is not the same thing as damning a character, at least in my opinion. It's possible to not like Sam or Dean or Martin or whomever's choices without damning the character as a whole, don't you think?
That, admittedly and by far, is my least favorite thing to read. It's shockingly immature and gets my blood pressure up every time. Thank heaven there isn't a lot of that, here.
I agree that this site is on the whole very balance - or else I definitely wouldn't be here. And I don't go anywhere else for that reason.
The silence is deafening. And yes, it's all down to lack of POV for Sam.
Most situations that the guys get into can be spun in different directions and depending on your point of view be 'good' or 'bad' (when they are generally just shades of grey (that phrase is never going to be usable again is it?:D )). For me I can't see that it was Dean's right to decide to hand over Henry to Abbadon. Story-wise it had to happen that way. What saves the situation was that Henry agreed to it, it was a bad plan though, Sam was right.
I doubt much thought was put into the moral implications of Dean's decision-making, because that wasn't the point of the episode. Think about 8.2, for example--Sam and Dean nonchalantly killed possessed strangers in this episode and in episodes beyond this one, to save themselves, to create diversions, just to by time, etc. But since show wanted to make a point about Dean's changing due to purgatory, killing Mrs. Tran, even if it meant killing the king of hell and ending a very large threat to humanity and closing the doors of hell forever, was suddenly beyond the pale. Morality and shades of gray (let's reclaim that expression instead of letting it be wasted on those books) are only important when show wants them to be important, and they're certainly not consistent there.
Totally agree. One of the things I miss most about S1-3 is how they devoted entire episodes to dealing with moral issues and shades of gray, and both boys were more reflective. Now they're hardened, the show in many ways has gotten darker, and they've lost a lot of that.
I somehow missed this comment earlier. I understood what you were commenting on - I believe, looking back, I was responding to percysowner's comment (and speaking generally at that). Perhaps I should have been more clear. :)
I think Dean took matters into his own hands when he knocked Henry out - but that was because Henry himself had a "bad" plan. Henry was going to jump back without having had his soul recharged. There was a huge risk that Henry would have either died from the jump, not made it all, or failed once he got back to his own time. Dean was - as often happens in the show - left with a lose-lose choice. But he had to save Sam.
The same thing happened to Sam with the Martin situation. Leave the hunt, meaning that Martin was on his own, or stay and risk the death of Amelia, an innocent. He had to save Amelia.
In many ways, actually, rather than being a lose-lose choice, it was more like the brothers didn't have any choice at all. Their value-systems chose for them.
As with a lot of things that have happened this season a bit more detail in conversations would help. Dean's logic when discussing the situation with his grandfather in the shop was not as good as the argument you just came up with.
Still Henry really wasn't given the option to not get involved if he didn't want to (of course he would have done, no doubt). I believe that Dean should have given him that option and that would have been more in character for Dean.
But I can live with this decision, like I can live with Sam's I was just interested in the lack of judgmental comments about it.
Not to nitpick, but Dean DID say those things - he said:
"What if you die, huh? Who says you'll even survive the jump?"
And
"What if you can't [i.e. fail]? I can't take that risk, not with Sammy on the hook now."
I'm a bit surprised that you think Dean would give Henry the option of sacrificing himself for his brother. I thought what he did was well in-character for Dean. But we can agree to disagree. I definitely agree that it was sad to see Henry go the way he did. He actually died a hero, having come up with the method of trapping Abbadon.
Second situation: Dean, on hearing that Abbadon wants to trade Sam for Henry and the box, renders him unconscious, bundles him into the car and drives him to the demon. When Henry regains consciousness Dean tells him that if he (Henry) distracts Abbadon then he’ll do the rest (ie get Sam?). Dean tells Henry that he’ll have to get close (thus pretty much ensuring Henry’s death), and in all the sites I read, I’ve read one comment on it.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think that Dean was responsible for Henry’s death any more than I think Sam was responsible for Martin’s death. (I do think that Sam, Dean, Martin etc are responsible for the actions they did take ie not looking for Dean, sending the text, keeping secrets, using Elizabeth etc). I feel that Henry was willing to give his life to defeat the demon, and that’s what he did. He could have told Dean to ‘get bent’ but he didn’t. The bullet idea was his, the sacrifice was his. I also feel that Martin was willing to give his life for what he believed to be the greater good (killing a vampire), by going back to hunting and choosing to go after Benny.
Being honest, I originally didn’t think too much of it as I assumed that Henry had to die so as not to disrupt the timetravel thing etc but did he? John thought that Henry ran out on him in ’58, and he did. He ran all the way to 2013. It was never said that John thought Henry dead. So maybe Henry only died because he went along with the plan in 2013? However, logically, did Henry have to die? As long as he didn’t go back to ’58 then he could not have done any damage to the original timeline (via being in John’s life) and its results, so his presence in 2013 would not have done any harm. Surely if they wanted to repopulate the SPN world then Henry would have been a great place to start. He’s competent, he’s knowledgeable and he’s family.
I’m not trying to start anything, I’m just trying to figure out why there were such differing responses to the two events. Is it because, for some, Martin was considered mentally incompetent and so could not be blamed for his actions and the blame had to go somewhere? Is it because Benny is liked? Is it because Henry was in on the ‘plan’ thus Dean is absolved? Is it because Amelia is rather unpopular so some people were not too pushed about saving her? (I wonder what the reaction would have been if, in the same situation and with the same ending, Sam had left Martin to try and help Castiel or Dean.) For some fans, is Sam considered fair game? He evidently did the indefensible by not looking for Dean so now everything he does should be considered cynically? You know, it’s a puzzling one for me.
Hi, Tim. I admit I had to go back up and find your comment, because I believe I was replying to percysowner, not you (I had already read and responded to your comment earlier). But that's okay. For the record, I don't think anyone was "damning" either character here, either. Even as I was responding to percysowner, I was speaking generally.
In fact, I too have been "amused" and occasionally exasperated by some of the fan reactions to Sam and Dean's different actions/choices. And I'm even MORE amused and puzzled and exasperated by the fan reactions to other fan reactions! :)
My issue always comes at the point where someone equates a certain fan reaction/interpretation with the show's intent. Everyone has their own interpretations of different events on the show - it's what makes these boards interesting. But it appears to me that some fans think that because a certain event in the show generates an expression of outrage amongst certain other fans - those who tend to favor one brother over another, or demonize one brother as opposed to the other - that the show is doing it deliberately, that it must not like that brother, or is deliberately trying to assassinate his character, or something along those lines. And these reactions tend to come from fans who favor the brother who is being demonized and seem to be very sensitive to the opinions of other fans. (Hence: fan reactions to other fan reactions).
It IS puzzling why there are different responses to the two events - and it is certainly fun to discuss those. But at times the reason for the different responses is plainly obvious: certain fans favor one brother to the point where, whenever there is conflict (which there always is in SPN), the other brother is always wrong. And some fans just seem to love the blame-game. Now, if certain fans have a those reactions to a character - that's their perogative. And it's pretty easy to read through the lines. But I do not understand taking those reactions and imposing them on the show itself, or developing them into a kind of persecution complex, or allowed them to color the way I perceive the show. And again - even those reactions are those fans' perogatives. But I just don't get it. I will echo what emmau said above, which succinctly states my POV:
"I do think that once it starts becoming a conspiracy theory that the PTB hates your favorite, it's pretty fair away from objective.
Dean fans, Cas fans, and Sam fans have all reached this point at some point where it's believed the PTB are deliberately trying to damage their favorite--the important thing is to find your way back, because once you start looking for ulterior motives within the show to slam your favorite, you're going to find them whether they're there or not."
That's exactly what I was getting at in my comment, in my own rambling way.
Having been in the fandom for just about a year, it's all very interesting and puzzling to me!
The PTB have never said they love writing for every character other than Sam.
Just because a PTB might express satisfaction with one character/storyline in an interview question specifically asking about that character/storyline, it doesn't mean that person doesn't like other characters/storylines. Even if one of the PTB plainly said, "I like writing for Cas," it doesn't follow that that person doesn't like writing for other characters.
PS It was good seeing the guys take up for their Dad. Personally, I think John made some bad choices, but he truly loved his sons. I believe after Mary died, he had a hard time expressing those feelings which he didn't seem to have prior to her death. Also, as for John referring in an older episode about his "father", he could have been referring to his stepfather who probably raised him after his biological dad disappeared and his mother remarried. He just never took his stepfather's last name and that's how they ended up Lawrence...they relocated. IMHO
BUT I bet anything that they want too and suspect that their tablet is hidden inside. That's where Cas comes in...He's close to the guys and maybe he can learn the location and give the information to Naomi and "goon squad". Then they will throw everything they have at it to try to gain access and to keep Crowley and his pals away. Great plan and it seems to be working since Sam and Dean are still oblivious about the new tablet. Kevin is going to be the key on cracking the information on the Demon Tablet and letting that cat out of the bag. And then the "sh*t is going to hit the fan"! At least that's my opinion. Love it or leave it.
Love how you think rmoats, very interesting direction to the plotline. Hopefully the brothers are wise to Cas's odd behaviour and don't allow him into the batcave. But, I guess that is JUST what is going to happen. So we are going to have Crowley et al and the angel tablet weapon moving in on Noami et al and the demon tablet weapon who both move in on the Winchersters (MoL new title?) and the batcave. They are all going to be pitted against eachother. You are right, the dung is going to be flung! The poor brothers never had it so bad.
1 Quoting "E" " the Colt kills all supernatural beings a fact since season 1. The Colt can't kill Lucifer or Death. Plot hole? Plot contradiction?" I'm a stickler for details so just pointing out that Lucifer said there are 5 things the Colt won't kill. Obviously him, angels. We are left to wonder about the others.
2. I also thought it was odd that Sam gave away to the old woman that Dean had the box. Saw that one coming. Why didn't he play that a little closer to the vest? Well, because it's an hour show and Abbedon had to end up going after the box. Could have been more creative, though.
3. Why didn't Sam protest leaving Henry to Abbedon? He trusted that his brother had a plan. Dean and Henry had a plan that did not involve getting Henry killed but was risky. Dean went along with it because Henry wanted to save his family and absolve himself of leaving John. I did think there could have been a look or clue between the brothers there, to let us in on what they were thinking. We know they don't need words!
4 "E", I don't remember John in a diner telling someone he'd say hello to his Dad. Was that the time travel ep with young John Winchester? If so, we could assume he had a step-dad, but more than likely, the writers overlooked it. I don't think they watch the show! But someone in control should!
5. I thought Dean could have been a little more sympathetic toward Henry and that he was a little heavy-handed in the hotel, given his recent "all in" speech, but he has gone back and forth over the years, and has expressed ambivalence before. I felt gratified that he came around by the end.
6. I also was waiting for something from Sam when Dean got up and left Henry and Sam at the table, but I took it to mean he rather agreed with Dean but didn't feel it was necessary to jump all over poor Henry any further.
7. I liked the new elements introduced. New kinds of demons, new tricky things for their arsenal like bullets with devils traps- great! I like that Winchesters are a cool, nerdy, "watcher" family. I think that comes together nicely, but we did get a VERY lot of info in one ep and only 1/2 a season to go to make sense of it, plus what has already been delivered to us as the QUEST of season 8: to close the doors of Hell and find tablets on demons and angels, and who knows what else.
8. Giants and 'hurt Sam' next week! I'm good.
Quoting Sopisa:
Quote:
Yes, it from "In the Beginning" (I think that's the title anyway) which was the scene in which Dean finds himself sitting next to his own father in a diner in a scene very reminiscent of the one in the movie "Back to the Future." In it, Young John briefly talks with a man in the diner who first welcomes John back from his tour of duty and then says "Say hi to your old man for me." This is creating a potential continuity issue now due to what we've learned about Henry Winchester recently.
OH, and BTW, about the colt. I guess my point about the colt was that it was canon for 5 seasons that it could "kill all supernatural beings" (no qualifiers or exceptions) and we only found out that there were actually 5 things it COULDN'T kill when lucifer said it in season 5. So, did the writers only go this route because they needed the colt to suddenly NOT be able to kill lucifer in that moment? Or had they planned to make this change all along? Is this a plot hole, a clumsy retcon or just the natural evolution of a plot that was growing more complex so that various details were given an adjustment? which begs the question; if it's a retcon or a willful manipulation of current canon does it even matter? We've accepted these changes over the years before, so why is it a problem for some fans now?
It's the Star Trek problem. Every so often in Star Trek, they would solve the problem of the week with a weapon, or some technological explanation and the episode would end. Then a new problem would come up that could easily be solved by the whatever that had been used previously. In Star Trek, everyone developed amnesia and forgot about the miracle weapon, or whatever and they would develop a NEW miracle whatever to solve that week's problem. Supernatural realized that fans actually REMEMBERED what weapons could don and so came up with a reason why it didn't work. Until this season the writers did completely forget Christo or reciting part of an exorcism to see if someone was possessed. They used it in Bitten, then didn't use it again. At lest the writers are trying to cover their bases.
It continues to bother me. There are just SO many little things that scream 'off'.
I haven't read posts here for awhile, but I have to comment on one of them. Apologies if this has been commented on to death.
The whole conversation in the car between Dean and Henry. Dean saying he couldn't save his father and doesn't want anything like that to happen to Sam. Ever.
What? Hasn't it already happened to BOTH Sam and Dean? Neither has been able to save the other in a gazillion different episodes already.
Even if he didn't want to admit that part of their history to Henry, the line just does not read true to me. He could've said just about anything in order to justify needing to rescue Sam to Henry, but that line just bugs me no end.
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