My Quick Chicon Rundown
Monday, 24 October 2011 09:27 | Last Updated on Monday, 24 October 2011 20:30 | Written by Alice Jester | 
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(My favorite pic from the con by far. Thanks @guynormanbee.)
The biggest challenge as editor of this site is trying to keep con reports, especially since there were so many this year, fresh. I mean, as fan experiences, conventions can be equated with the same high one gets on religious retreats. You come back refreshed, renewed, thrilled to meet your fellow brethren, and at times with a new perspective on things. Then you go back to your daily life and it’s all a sweet memory. When reading about cons through reports, they get dry as toast after a while.
I know, I’m sure you’re saying, “Come on Alice, what does this have to do with what was said at the J & J panel?” Well that’s it. I’ve got the full breakdown on this site of every J & J panel this year. A lot Misha too. A lot of other con guests, which are mostly the same guests each time. Did something extraordinary happen at this weekend’s Salute to Supernatural that didn’t happen at other cons? Yes and no. Mostly no. But here’s some of the really fun facts about this weekend in particular between all the panels, special events, and private Q & A’s.
There are some mild spoilers here folks. Nothing that’ll give away the farm, but if you’re even the slightest bit spoilerphobic, this might not be for you.
Jared and Jensen
Jared and Genevieve are having a boy. The baby is due in March. Congratulations to the Padalecki’s! Man are their lives about the change.
Jared had requested to fans on Twitter when the news broke that instead of sending him and Gen gifts, make a donation to St. Jude’s Children’s Hospital. Winchester Bros.com (good friends of ours) setup a fundraiser to do just that. So far, $10,900 has been raised. Jared was quite humbled by that. I believe another congratulations is in order!
Speaking of fundraising, Jensen too has had his own inspiration of late. Back in Toronto, as reported here by Karen, he auctioned off a special jar of rock salt. He took some rock salt from an upcoming episode they were shooting and created two jars. Jerry Wanek, the set design genius of Supernatural, created a custom label for these jars and Jared, Jensen, and Jim Beaver signed those labels. The second of those two jars was auctioned off yesterday in Chicago.
This time, Jensen was raising money for his nephew Levi. He was born with Downs Syndrome, and his sister-in-law is raising funds for Team Levi for an upcoming buddy walk. The walk is supporting the Downs Syndrome Guild of Dallas. The winning bidder paid $5500 for this special collector’s item. Jared and Jensen were both in awe. Jared’s reaction, “I can’t count that high.” Jensen’s reaction, “My sister-in-law is crying right now.” He gave the woman a hug and the rock salt was hers.
As for the rest of the panel, Jared and Jensen were their usual entertaining selves. They took a poll of first timers and it was half of the room. Jensen apologized to everyone for the prior guests at the con. Of course that list was quickly dwindled down to Sebastian.
I was too distracted for a bit of the panel. You see, Jared was hot (yes, insert your own suggestive comments here). He always is at these things. He wouldn’t take off his sweater though, so he got a fan from a...fan. He kept sitting up there on the stage fanning himself and that hair kept flapping in the breeze. I honestly don’t remember half of the answers to the questions because I was too entranced by the Padahair. So yes, there was my shallow moment of the con. I am not proud, but oh so happy. Incidentally, one of the questioners did start with, “Jared, your hair is miraculous.” He pretended not to hear so she could repeat that.
I got to play instigator in a way! Several fans through Twitter were urging me to ask Jared and Jensen during their panel about the Metronome bit that Guy Norman Bee talked about in Toronto. Well, chances of getting a turn to ask a question at these things are about a million to one. Guy was urging me through Twitter to shout “Metronome!” When I pointed out that I could have be tossed out of the auditorium, Guy used his power of influence to help out. He made an appearance, went up to a fan at the mic and had her ask the question. Sadly, Jared and Jensen weren’t about to spoil what that was, but still, it’s awesome to get that question asked. It involves a dance move, that’s what we learned here anyway. Jared and Jensen wouldn’t demonstrate and we can only hope it makes the outtakes.
For those questioning if we’ll be playing the game of “spot the scar” on Sam’s hand for a while, Jared said it’s permanently scarred. They’re going to have to address that all the time now.
I died laughing over Jensen’s little slam about his co-star. He was asked how long he was supposed to be on Smallville. Two years, but then he was picked by David Nutter for Supernatural so they killed Jason off. He was told it was him and “a guy from The Gilmore Girls.” He joked that guy was Milo Ventimiglia. Of course Milo went onto better things with Heroes and he got Jared instead. “Too bad we didn’t get him, for I would have been the tall one.” (You all do realize he’s joking, right?)
The guys already have a dream guest in mind. Michael Rosenbaum. “YES!” I say.
Spoiler alert!! Episode 8 is going to be hilarious. It even made Bob Singer laugh, which never happens.
A fan asked Jared if Sam would continue to be affected by Hell. Yes, he will have constant reminders. He may want to take the high road, but it’s not going to be easy. That wasn’t really the answer the fan was looking for. She mentioned to Jared that Sam used to be so much more emotional. Jared’s answer is priceless. “Do you want me to cry?”
Jensen had shared this at his private Q & A in Toronto, but this time he said it at the panel. He talked about the two cut scenes from “The Girl Next Door.” The first was them filming the cheese actually being poured on the clerk. The props guys made a concoction with white chocolate. Jensen said the shot of the cheese melting all over the guy was perfect. They cut it. Ditto for a montage of Dean goofing around in the cabin during that 3 week time period.
It seems that I’m not the only one with some concerns over the writing. Jensen during his private Q & A talked about how he and Jared just rewrote an entire scene for an upcoming episode in which Sam and Dean have a falling out (I hope I’m not spoiling things for anyone, but if you’ve been watching the show lately, you have to know that’s coming). The writing was that terrible. Jensen said it was a bad romantic comedy and Sam and Dean would never talk like that. Sablegreen was at that session and will have more details later (as will my good friends Lynn and Kathy at Fangasm) but it was very interesting to hear that after I talked at length with numerous people this weekend (including Maureen Ryan) who are really concerned with what’s happened to the writing quality.
(Update, here is Fangasm's report on the Jensen Q & A. That should give much better detail than what I have here. fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/jensen-ackles-–-keeping-it-fresh-at-chicon/ )
Other notes
I did get a few minutes with Clif Kosterman (Jared and Jensen’s bodyguard for the four of you that might not know that), and delivered to him the “A Thank You To The Supernatural Crew” book put together by Yirabah. For those that don’t remember, Yirabah asked people to send their special thank you messages to the crew of Supernatural. She got many great responses so she put them all together in a book and had it professionally printed. It came out amazing! She mailed a couple of copies to me and I gave one to Clif yesterday. He thought the book was really cool and he would personally take it back to Vancouver to give to the crew. Guy Norman Bee saw the book too (and liked it), and signed my copy of it.
I’ll post pictures of the book later today (or perhaps tomorrow since I’m playing catch up) but a big thank you again to Yirabah and her helpers, Tim The Enchanter and Supernarttu.
Poor Misha. It’s really bad enough he’s gotten the shaft from this show, but he suffered from having the worst questions at any panel I’ve seen in the history of Supernatural cons. These questions were just so bad. I actually admired the job Misha did in fending off these bizarre statements (“Do you have a refrigerator in your hotel room?”, “Is it a good idea to put ‘Wave of Celestial Intent’ on your resume?), but when one of the questioners started talking back to a complaining audience, things got ugly. I talked to fans in the lobby about it the next day and they were outright pissed off. One even told me he and a few others walked out.
Thank you Guy Norman Bee for answering my question about filming with digital cameras. I've tried to get that answer for two years now from someone involved with the show. Thrilled you shared such great info to a tech geek like me.
Top prize for the “You had to be there” panel goes to Mark Pellegrino and Sebastian Roche. I’m not entirely certain why Creation thought it was a great idea to put these two together, but man did one X-rated panel come from it. It was impossible to transcribe. Sebastian’s answers often veered into songs with made up dirty lyrics involving balls, d***s, and somehow, ear muffs. Mark, the facial expressions alone to everything sold the entire panel. My laugh out loud moment came when the two re-enacted a zombie chase. Brilliant! It’s gotta be on YouTube somewhere.
I would tell you all how fantastically awesome karaoke was, but then I’d be breaking the cardinal rule. What happens at karaoke stays at karaoke.
If you haven’t seen it already, I implore you to check out Maureen Ryan’s article spurned from a conversation this weekend between her, me, and Lynn and Kathy of Fangasm. She calls it "Tough Love For Supernatural." I’m actually quoted in the article and I think it raises many great concerns. I know several people have been turned off by her recent negativity toward the show, but try to look at the suggestions she gives constructively. Is that the kind of Supernatural you want to see?
If you want more detail about the con, there are two places you can go. Check out my Twitter timeline at @WinFamBusiness. I tweeted during several panels, with the heaviest detail coming from Misha and Jared and Jensen’s panel. Apparently my tweets during Misha’s panel got quite a bit of attention (even Clif said something about them). Also, as usual, if you want links to all the con reports, that can be found at the Salute to Supernatural Chicago 2011 page on Supernatural Wiki.
All in all, it was another fantastic weekend for me. Chicago is like a family reunion for me though since it’s my fourth con in a row here. I caught up with many familiar faces and met several others I hadn’t before. It was a weekend loaded with great conversation. I’m going to put out a more in-depth commentary about the numerous discussions I had with fans and fellow bloggers about the current state of Supernatural (don’t worry, it’s not overly negative). It might even replace my review for this week. In the meantime, more reports will be coming from Sablegreen about the con soon.
For all the latest Supernatural info and article links, follow The Winchester Family Business on Twitter at @WinFamBusiness
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Comments
Thanks for the review of the con! I wish I could have been there.
Unfortunately it looks like it's gotten worse instead of better. Don't forget it isn't just Jensen noticing out of character writing and him and Jared trying to fix it, he and Guy Bee had to come up with Dean's reaction to Castiel's "death". Bee talked about putting a call into Gamble but going by the fact that he ended up talking about what he and Jensen had to come up with, I'd say that is a pretty good indication she wasn't much help.
This is the same person who once said there were times she knew some line she'd written wasn't very good but she figured Jensen would figure out a way to fix it(that's something of a compliment to Jensen Ackles' ability and her willingness to trust he could come up with something but actors shouldn't have to "fix" what a writer knows is low quality work, that is the writer's job). The more time the actors have to devote to fixing the writing, the less time they have to devote to actually preparing to ACT that writing.
I don't know, little things are one thing, but man, character arcs are another. Maybe now that some of the burdens of showrunning are off Sera's shoulders, she can focus on the writing more. There's still time to fix things.
I'm gald you had a fantastic weekend, Alice!
At this point Jensen could just show up and perform without even thinking about the show as a whole. But he really cares about the fans by letting us know they do work hard to make the best show possible. I love Jensen for how much he cares about us and the show.
Thanks Alice for the report!
That being said, I really don't know how far along they are in season 7 writing/shooting. How many scripts are in the can and on film? I'm curious to see how this plays out with the debate of the writing (from both inside the show apparently to the fandom at large).
Ben told me at Comic con he asked to be Consulting Producer this year. He wants to step back, think about other things. He was always Kripke's right hand man. Without Kripke, it probably isn't the same. Not to say that he isn't committed to Supernatural, he very much is, but he'll only give input if asked. He'll write the scripts he's given.
They just finished shooting episode 9 and are on 10. I believe the scripts are up to at least 13, but don't hold me to that.
I wonder how much fan feedback plays a role these days. I know Kripke listened in the past. I wonder if that is as true now.
As for Jensen mentioning the scene that he and Jared had to re-write on set, I don't think that's too unusual. I've heard that mentioned before, but maybe not to this extent. At least, they care enough to know how their characters would relate to each other and that the writers were wrong in the direction they were taking.
I wonder if the new writers go back and look at previous seasons...That way they know what the dynamics is between the characters and how it relates back to the stories presented. Also, do they pick the brains of previous writers? If not, I think they should. Just a suggestion.
I heard something this weekend from someone very familiar with the biz. When writers or actors "joke" about something, they're usually serious and possibly venting, just masking it. Remember Ben Edlund in "The French Mistake" writing how fake Bob Singer was letting things go because it's "season six"? Could it be Ben was projecting a bit? We'll never know for sure, but that's food for thought.
I do think that's extremely important, especially when you have a brand new writer whose script may not be up to the usual standards and the producers are being as diligent about this as they should be.
It means Sera is in charge of day to day operations of the show and everyone reports to her. Not Robert Singer though. He's the senior producer and has the seniority that both Warner Brothers and The CW might go to for the final word. It's very, very sad for me to say, but it's a boys club.
Show business is a complicated system, but Warner Brothers assigns senior producers to a show for a reason. They like having that kind of liaison between show, studio and network.
Her title is still showrunner too, but she consults with Bob Singer a lot on things like direction and budget. He has a lot of say as to what gets done on the show, ie the technical stuff and what goes into an episode. From what I understand, he doesn't fight for things quite like Kripke did.
I've said since the third episode in on S6 that SG was the wrong showrunner, and I still believe that. Ben seems to have lost interest and is moving on. Robert Singer, who I also thought would take a bigger role, hasn't stepped up. So, it is what it is and I think the pattern or writing for here on out is pretty well set.
No problems at all with Jensen talking about the writing. I have voiced worry before about all the new and guest writers on-board this season and what they might do. I'm just glad he and Jared are staying active in keeping the characters true. It is these two characters, after all, that we fans are attached too.
I don't know, Alice, but just from what I have read about the con, it doesn't seem as if there was as much fun had as in other cons, but I'm glad people have a chance to take part.
I dying to see what little PaddaBaby looks like. I want dimples, and it sure has a beautiful Mom.
I think if anyone gets Sam and Dean, it's Jensen and Jared. Honest though, that's the first time I ever heard that they've changed scripts before. I've constantly gotten the "we never change the scripts" lines from the actors, including Jensen in prior interviews. I guess Jensen and Jared have kept that under wraps.
I fundamentally disagree with a lot of Mo Ryan and (sorry) Alice's views seem to be. For me, and I believe most of the fans I see on boards etc, s7 has been a big step up from s6 and most people are really enjoying it.
I don't like the influence that someone like Mo Ryan can have. She is only 1 fan, but when she says something, and claims it to be a widely held view across the fandom, there is a real danger of misrepresentation and talking the show down. Mo is a bit of a bitter Cas fan who I suspect (even if it is on a subconscious level) doesn't want the show to succeed without him. That is driving some of her negativity I am sure.
Well in my view the show does not miss Cas at all. Many fans feel the same. Yet Mo's un representative negativity gets a huge audience and a wide influence just because of the position she has.
I have some issues with s7. I don't think enough attention has been paid to writing the brothers relationship - probably since s3. Jensen confirmed this in his Q&A. And s7 has had a few missed opportunities on this score eg the trial, and the dragging on of the secret about Amy. But overall I am loving it. ep 1 was the best season opener since IMTOD IMO. ep 2 went straight into my top 10 eps ever. It was awesome. Ep3 was well done, and I enjoyed it. I was just slightly irritated by the regression in the boys relationship. In DYL the trial was poor, and the pacing was off. I really enjoyed last weeks ep. Just a great fun MOTW.
So I simply don't share Mo's worries about the writing and I am finding her reviews increasingly hard to take.
S7 is a drastic improvement tonally over season 6, but the writing, I'm not sure. I LOVED the first two episodes and since then, bitter disappointment. Season 6 and season 7 are both missing something that the other five seasons had, heart. When the brothers hurt, we used to hurt too. The writing just seems to be missing that somehow. I felt it in the warehouse scene in HCW but otherwise, not much else.
I don't have all the answers, but I see part of the problem being that the newer writers just don't get these brothers. It all can't fall on Ben and Sera, it just can't.
Better for this show to embrace all its fans and write Cas back in sooner rather than later, to ensure we get the ratings necessary to secure season 8 and beyond. What is good for every group in fandom is good for the show, period. There is a reason why the TFW episodes of season 6 did better than the rest.
The ratings are fine. We are no danger of cancellation at the moment. Ratings are not falling. In fact they are steady, or even increasing. The last ep was the highest rated since the premiere.
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This is simply not true Claire. The 2 highest rated eps of the season were EoMS and WaBs. Cas wasn't in either. The main TFW eps were probably Caged Heat, MD and Frontierland. These all got ratings below the average for the season as did the Cas centric TMWWBK. Frontierland and MD were 2 of the lowest rated of the season. Not arguing they deserved that. Both great eps. But your argument that the TFW eps got higher ratings is simply not supported by the facts.
My view is not biased, or fuelled by Cas hate. As I have said I like him fine. And I love both boys equally. And I love SPN. I have no huge partiality to any one aspect of the show, except I love the boys relationship, but what SPN fan doesn't. So I think I am a fairly neutral observer. While your post gives away very clearly that you are not neutral. Of course that is fine. I respect your opinion. But please do not assume things about my perspective on the show, or paint me as something I am not based on zero evidence.
I should also point out that lots of fans of the show of all kinds, including Cas fans, are losing patience with Mo's partiality and negativity.
First part should have been
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Claire you are completely misrepresenting me for some reason. I am NOT a Cas hater. I like the character. I just don't see him as a major part of the show and don't particularly miss him. I have never even heard of samtv. I do post at CW Lounge sometimes but never in any of the anti Cas threads. You could scour every SPN site on the Internet and you won't find one shred of evidence that I am a Cas hater.
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The ratings are fine......etc
My bad...hope this makes sense.
Thanks Alice. I didn't know that. Have now registered.
Are you serious?! There has been a drop-off of about a million since S5 and the demo has fallen too. That is fact and cannot be denied. If you think scraping up to 1.92 (or whatever it got to?) is a good rating for the last episode, I'm happy for you. But in fact it's abysmal, and also was likely contingent on the stunt casting and the fact that Fringe didn't air live that night.
The ratings have plummeted, and such a large drop can in no way, shape or form be good for the show. Mark Pedowitz said S8 depended on good ratings. Anyone who is trying to say it's all fine needs to get their head out of the sand imo. Why do you think so much pr is going on, to an extent that has never before happened? Gamble seems to pop up in interviews every week and the Js have being wheeled out more often in four episodes than they have in an entire season before.
Mo Ryan is impartial and also highly respected. Maybe you need to take note of how many professional journalists like her (as opposed to amateur bloggers and fans on the forums where you post) are voicing their disquiet. Lots of fans of the show are losing patience with Gamble's bias – and it's reflected in the ratings.
Yes I am serious thanks for asking. I was talking specifically about THIS seasons ratings which have been very steady. And we have NOT lost a million viewers since s5 – as I will demonstrate using those pesky things called facts – so it CAN be denied.
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You might think it is abysmal, but it not for the CW. SPN was the 3rd highest rated show on the network last week.
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You’d better pass that message on to the people who run the (sophisticated and usually pretty darned accurate) renew / cancellation prediction models, eg on Spoiler TV and on TV By the Numbers, which all have SPN in the ‘likely to be renewed’ category. The only shows deemed to be even more certain to of renewal than SPN on those models are TVD (a no-brainer) and TSC. Your assertion that the ratings ‘are plummeting’ and are ‘abysmal’ are based on a lack of understanding about how renewal decisions are made. It is about relative, not absolute, ratings. Only the worst rated 2 or 3 shows on CW will be cancelled this year. We are nowhere close to being one of them.
You can think what you want about the quality of the show, but if you are going to try to use the ratings as evidence that lots of people agree with you, then I am afraid I am going to have to spoil your argument with some facts;
You say we have lost a million viewers since s5. This is not the case;
- Even on Live + SD it is not true; s5 average viewers 2.67m, s6 average 2.24m, s7 average so far 1.9m (source Super Wiki). In total a loss of about 700,000 – much of which is due to the move to Fridays
- However the picture is much clearer if you look at those who watch live AND on DVR. I know DVR viewers count for less to the advertisers – but you are using ratings as a measure of viewer satisfaction so it is perfectly valid from that perspective to include all viewers. Over the the period you quote (s5 to 7) our +7 DVR ratings have gone from +25% in s5, to +40% in s6 to +60% in s7 (source TV by the Numbers). So our live + 7 day DVR ratings (ie the total number of people watching the show) has gone from 3.3m in s5 to 3.14 in s6, to 3.04m in s7. This is a loss of less than 10% in 2 years, including the move to Fridays.
Sorry if it ruins your argument, but the facts hardly support the picture you paint of people abandoning the show in droves due to a fall in quality.
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I don’t agree this is happening any more than in previous seasons.
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I’m sorry but you can’t just state your own opinion and expect others to accept it as incontrovertible fact. Where is your evidence that Mo Ryan is impartial? She is a self-confessed Dean girl, and an open Cas fan. Those facts alone mean she is not impartial. Where is your evidence that Sera is biased? I see none.
I go to lots of sites, and my take is that most fans are enjoying s7. Your view on that is no more valid than mine. And has there ever been a time in SPN’s history when some section of the fandom wasn’t vociferously ‘voicing their disquiet’? S4; Sam fans up in arms. S5 Dean fans up in arms. S6; all sorts of people unhappy for many different reasons. S7 Cas fans up in arms. And those who haven’t like the direction of the story have always argued that the quality has fallen. But as I posted previously ‘not what I wanted’ =/= ‘poor quality’.
You made me laugh with your Mo Ryan comment. I remember running a Sera Gamble interview last year in which a group of fans jumped on this site and attacked me as the worst Sam fan imaginable, and they threw in my face that you don't get a more unbiased writer than Mo Ryan. Mo is a friend of mine and I can honestly say when it comes to analysis, she's very fair. She doesn't let her character preferences get in the way of speaking the truth. I try to do the same, but it doesn't matter, someone will always think there's bias. It's an opinionated fandom!
Sadly, ratings anymore are not a yard stick for dropping quality. Viewer habits are changing. Every single show on TV is suffering from dropping ratings. Supernatural has lost live viewers, but DVRs three years ago were in 15 or 20% of households. Now they're in over 40%. We really don't know what Supernatural's total ratings are in DVR. Just the demos.
People aren't watching TV on Fridays anymore. They're catching things online, buying on iTunes, etc. DVD sales are still very strong. Supernatural outsells most of the big name shows in DVD.
Plus, and this is just in the US, the CW doesn't have the same coverage they used to. I know that if it wasn't for our U-verse, we wouldn't be able to get The CW over the tuner. When they went to digital, poor signals became no signal. I remember someone telling me this weekend how much Supernatural has fallen in ratings since season one. Well yeah, season one was on a different network with better coverage and affiliates. Also, more people watched live. Comparisons can only start with season two, and even that season didn't measure DVR.
So how do you measure dissatisfaction in quality? Fan feedback is really the best way. I"m not saying they'll listen to us or spend hours on boards, but ratings just isn't it anymore.
I agree Alice. Just one point - our +7 DVR rate is now ~+60% (based on 1st 3 weeks of s7), not 40% as you stated. It was +40% for s6, and +25% just 2 years ago in s5. As you rightly say DVRing is a growing trend - particularly for CW shows.
I know we only have those DVR %s for the demo. I was extrapolating to the total viewers because the original poster made the point about losing a million viewers. If you use the demos we have gone from 1.5 in s5 to 1.22 in s7 in the Live + 7DVR.
I agree ratings don't measure quality. If they did 2.5 Men would be the highest quality show on TV! But I don't think fan feedback is a good measure of general satisfaction either though. The online fandom is a tiny fraction of the 2 to 3 million viewers of the show. Most SPN viewers simply don't stress over every tiny detail like we do.
I don't think anyone is saying Cas isn't popular. Of course he is. But the facts don't support your argument that the eps with him in got better ratings than those without. They didn't.
TMWWBK got 2.11m. The season average was 2.24m. It got lower ratings than many other Cas-free or Cas-lite eps in the latter part of the season. LaV, M3, AiS, ATTWN all did better. In the early part of the season TTM was the only ep in which Cas featured heavily, and was by some margin the lowest rated ep in the first 6 or 7 eps of s6 (with only 2.16m).
Actually I don't think that who is or isn't in each ep makes much difference to the ratings. The vast majority of SPN viewers don't follow online and don't have a clue about that before they sit down to watch. But if you are going to make that argument you need to make sure the actual ratings support what you are saying.
It is of course up to you whether you watch. But I am afraid I agree that anyone who has stopped watching JUST because Cas isn't in the show anymore was not, IMHO, a real fan of SPN. You were a fan of one aspect of it but not of the whole show. SPN is Dean and Sam's story. Yes Bobby, Cas, Ellen, Crowley, John and many other supporting characters have added to the mix over the years, but Sam and Dean are the constants and the heart of the show.
If you have a Neilson box I think it is a real shame if you won't tune it into SPN on a Friday. Do you want a show you have enjoyed to be cancelled (not that I think that is likely) just because a character you liked isn't in it anymore - as if to say 'that'll show you' to the showrunners?
And I have to ask.....if you don't watch anymore, why are you still posting about it? That is, of course, up to you, but it seems a strange thing to spend your time doing - particularly as (if you really aren't watching) you won't know what anyone is talking about re recent eps etc.
You only have to be willing to look in order to see the truth. Clearly there are those here that choose to remain blinkered and in the dark.
So, in fairness, I answer your question: "Is that the kind of Supernatural you want to see?"
No. Honestly, it is not. Succinctly, I can point to the fact that Season 4 was her favorite as a big clue as to why. I didn't hate Season 4, but overall consider it a necessary evil to get to Season 5.
However, I do find myself not so much as disagreeing with what she wants, as disagreeing with her on what's there. I agree with her that the show shouldn't be unrelentingly depressing--but it hasn't been that way for me since Season 4 ended (I would also say Season 3 is pretty much a downer). So far, I would categorize Season 7 as more or less upbeat. I agree with her that I miss Rufus and Ellen--but being dead doesn't mean you're gone from this show's world, or that the world is smaller--the dead are always with us in Supernatural, in a very tangible way. I also think her wish for the boys to be different is influenced by fan fatigue. People--real people--don't really change, not at the core. They are different than they were in lots of ways, but deep down Sam is Sam and Dean is Dean. I don't have a problem with that consistency.
Ultimately, though, all this negativity flying around has got me thinking. Nitpicking can be fun of course, depending on your personality and the company you keep. My Supernatural-viewing group loves to dissect the show. And of course, I don't think the show is perfect. Azazel is welcome anytime to come back around and roast Lisa and her whole storyline on the ceiling of his choice (retroactively, at this point, but still).
But I think sometimes it is beneficial to take a step back and remember that reviews are really for other fans. Nothing you or I or Maureen Ryan wants from the show is ever going to happen. We don't hire the writers, we don't oversee the plotlines. This may be obvious, but TV Shows, books, movies--people, even--they are what they are, take them or leave them. At the end of the day, all the influence a fan has is that individual choice. Maureen Ryan, as you've mentioned elsewhere, is ready to leave. I don't begrudge her that choice, or disagree that it's the right one for her--if nothing else, her opinions are consistent and clear. Despite how much I like this site, you shouldn't feel prohibited from choosing your preference either, Alice; while I enjoy your reports, there's no reason to do a hobby like this if it's no longer enjoyable for you. Now me? I care about Sam and Dean, always will. And for one hour a week, Supernatural provides a much needed diversion for me from an otherwise good, but frustrating life.
So I'll take it, warts and all, for whatever it is and for as long as it is. May those of us that can still enjoy it, do so; may the rest have fond memories of the seasons they loved.
I agree, there isn't anything from a critical point of view that can change the way writers are going to go. Mo is a TV critic though and one that has earned a national reputation for her candid reviews. It's what she does, and speaking her mind will always ruffle feathers, especially with a passionate fandom. It's her job and I think she's doing it well.
When I do reviews, I choose to do them honestly. I'm a huge fan and support the show in every other piece that I do here but with reviews, it's my obligation as a reviewer to be honest. I've been this way since I started writing them in season three.
I'm not leaving this fandom, abandoning the show, giving up, etc. I'm also not going to make demands or threats, just point out concerns when I can. Debate is good and it's what we do best here. This debate has divided the fandom. It needs to be discussed.
It's funny, I had others come up to me in Chicago and say that Mo is right with every word she says. I agree with a lot of what she says, but maybe not everything. As I said before, I haven't had much of a chance to deeply analyze all her points.
We'll have our moments of relaxing and enjoying too. I'll admit, we haven't been doing enough of that here lately. I'll try to make sure that happens as well. The purpose of this site has always been to enrich the fan experience. Some fans like to debate plot points, others want to oogle over the hair.
I am thinking more and more that it may be possible that I agree with Maureen Ryan sometimes, but don't find the critical points as devastating. For example, I miss Cas very much. But I'm also super confident he'll be back, and I don't see the character losses as a sign that the show is totally off the rails. I would be happy if some lovable characters were still alive, but I don't think their loss ruins the whole enterprise either.
You're right; she is a TV critic. My husband pointed out, "Isn't it her job to hate everything?" There is some truth to that.
I do appreciate debate, and your honesty (and the occasional oogle :) ). I think it's just that I enjoy the show enough that I like to keep things positive in the end--after all, I watch it and discuss it because doing so is fun. My reviews (verbal ones in this case) of the worst episodes boil down to "Well, that episode kind of sucked. Here's why. But I still love the show! Here's some reasons for that, too."
Ultimately, if it's still worth watching for any reason, I want to spend a little focus on why, just to build back up after a little (justified though it may be, nobody's perfect) tearing down.
fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/jensen-ackles-–-keeping-it-fresh-at-chicon/
I enjoy reading your articles very much. I can't comment on Season 7 because I haven't seen any of it, but I have to say, I'm one of those who liked season 6. I really did not like season 4 or 5 so maybe that's why. Maybe the story telling was tighter in season 4, but I hated the whole arc, so I've never gone back to watch. I thought season 5 started out well, then completely lost it's way after the fourth episode. I didn't even recognize Sam and Dean most of the time. By the time PONR rolled around, I couldn't even enjoy it because I felt the whole season had been contrived to bring us a big build up to the 100th episode. The rest of the season was rushed after that and Swan Song just depressed me because I had really hoped Sam wouldn't have to throw himself into hell just to make up for his very sad existence.
I do think the souless thing went on a little long, but I enjoyed watching the build up to getting Sam's soul back, and although the episodes after were hit and miss (as with most seasons), I loved that the guys were back in sinc. I've felt like I was watching the two people I had started watching in season 1. Not perfect, not always agreeing, but two people who actually like and care about each other.
I hope I will like season 7, but I do admit, hearing that Jared and Jensen had to re-write dialogue more than once, when they've both said they don't normally mess with the writing, is a little disconcerting. And count me as one of those who is a little tired of watching Dean drink and slog his way through guilt issues. Of course, it would hardly be "Supernatural" if Sam and Dean were suddenly cured of their issues and turned pollyanna. I'm guessing Sam's new attitude is temporary.
Thanks again for writing. I've never been to a convention so I always look forward to your updates.
Season 7has alot of potential I hope it fulfills it.
"All the time. Seriously. Usually just certain lines, because we get new writers. I know that every year they have to take at least one outside submission, so basically someone who has never written for the show."
He used a recent example from this season to explain what he meant, but I didn't get the idea he was saying this year was any different from other years in terms of finding those kinds of lines. He and Jared know these characters inside out, so I'm not surprised they have some leeway in how they play them.
I for one am enjoying season 7 as I enjoyed season 6. Notice I didn't say love. That I reserve for season 1 & season 4. Those were my two favourites. But I will never abandon this show, because I love the characters. I will agree that the writing has been lacking sowewhat. And the fact that Jensen & Jared had to rewrite some of their dialogue is telling. But, hey, this is a show in it's seventh season after all, even The X-files suffered from battle fatigue in it's last two seasons.
I am very happy that you are not walking out in anger from the show or from this site. I think I would be a little lost! I love reading all the reviews and the different opinions, it's debating at it's finest.
I'm one of those people who will trudge through anything to get to the end, whether I'm still enjoying it or not. Maybe I suffer from masochism? No one in my family ever asks me for my opinion anymore about books, movies or television shows, cause apparently I like everything! Explains why I'm not a critic.
I, myself share your worries however. Something feels off to me, though I am enjoying the season so far. There is no "heart" anymore. No reason for doing anything anymore. They never save anyone, and Mo Ryan is right in that the world isn't better for having the Winchester in it, anymore.
Definitely. Jensen made it clear he wasn't happy with s6, but both Js seem enthusiastic again this year and happy with how it is going.
Quoting Laurie:
I don't agree with this I am afraid. Where would the world have been if they hadn't managed to get most of the souls back into Purgatory in eps 1 and 2? We would still have the Leviathans, plus a million other nasties.
I agree their saving-people rate on an individual case-by-case basis has dipped quite a bit. But in SUDP they saved Jenna, and everyone else that Maggie and Don's fighting would have killed. It is not true to say the world isn't any better for having the Winchesters in it.
In terms of heart, I felt their pain hugely in eps 1 and 2, then the pace has slipped a bit. DYL in particular was IMO a big missed opportunity for some real emotional scenes, brotherly moments etc. I wanted Sam to tell Dean he is a great guy, a hero, has always done his best, and shouldn't carry so much on his shoulders. Instead the whole trial fell flat.
So I am not saying s7 has been 100% perfect so far. But where I differ from Mo is in seeing some sort of overall downward trend. I don't see that at all. The show has always gone through good and bad (or less good anyway) patches. And opinions vary on what these are. Some see s4 as the shows finest hour. I hated s4. Some loved soulless Sam. I hated that early s6 period. Some hated Bela and Ruby and were saying back in s3 that the quality was slipping. I strongly suspect that Mo is seeing s7 as a bad patch because of what has happened to Cas. But that was a creative decision, that you may or may not like, but it is not an indicator of declining quality. She is mistaking 'not what I wanted' with 'poor quality'. Many fans and posters do that, but an experienced, professional critic should be capable of more objectivity.
In my view, and I see this view echoed all over the sites I visit, s7 is off to a great start and has been a HUGE improvement on s6. I see no major fall off in quality.
My only comment on the overall trend has been that since s4 - when they decided to make the story much bigger than the brothers, introduce angels, and put a wedge between the boys - the writers energies have been used elsewhere. They have focused on newer, shinier concepts like the apocalypse or noir. They have taken their eye off writing for what is the heart of the show - the boys relationship. So more of the gaps they have left have had to made up by the performance of J&J. It doesn't have to be big storylines. It can be just little things like in-jokes between them, references to their shared past, little phrases (bitch/jerk and other similar) and moments. The early seasons were full of these little details that made you totally believe these 2 were brothers. Not so much now.
But I think there is every indication that s7 is heading in the right direction. For me the show is on an improving trajectory again after some missteps in early s6.
If Jensen is revealing this, just like in Season 6, it's becuase he feels there are real problems. I think he is less stressed overall about it this year though because he isn't being as overworked and because there aren't the BTS technical issues(those budget problems caused issues on the set up in Vancouver which made the set in general a little more stressful) due to Singer being in charge of the budget.
But yeah, I don't think this is any different than his comments about season 6. He claimed they were taken out of context, so the same thing could have happened here. Or not. We really have no idea! I'm just glad he and Jared have that kind of power to fix things.
I agree China B. I wouldn't generalise to the whole of the last few seasons. I loved most of s5. But the start of s7 has definitely already been better than s4, the start of s5, and the first half of s6 for me.
They have always been there. Previous seasons might have been running a tad more smoothly, and there has been the odd awkward episode, but I never felt it in me to complain about this road the show was travelling on.
Actually, I’ve never experienced that with any tv show I have fallen in love with. I focus on what I love about it and not on what might not work.
Just as with some of my favourite books – there are always turns in the story I would not have taken, but as stories they have worked for me… simply because of the characters I invest a lot of emotions in.
It’s no secret that I also love True Blood and I loved the last, fourth, season, although the writers gave us a very different story than I expected. In the fourth book of the Sookie Stackhouse series things happen differently, and I was quite sad that we didn’t get the last, very beautiful scene described in the book. But I had no cause to object to the show or its writing, because I love the characters and the journeys they take.
I will not do so with Supernatural, my
all-time favourite show, either. I love it too much to focus on what is not working. Instead of enjoying it, I might end up biting my nails in bitterness… New writers need a chance to find their footing and get in pace with the characters’ paths. Ever since the show has started out, Jared and Jensen have taken the liberty to correct what they thought was not working, and they will probably continue to do so whenever they feel it’s not in character.
Furthermore, I also take a look at the characters in terms of psychological continuity. And so far, whatever changes the characters have gone through, I haven’t noticed anything that might not be possible. At the core, to my mind, it has been very much in line with what Sam or Dean experienced, according to their assessments of themselves and their understanding of their own lives, respectively their own emotional status.
Even though we believe to know people (or fictional characters), they are still capable of behaviour utterly different from what we might expect of them. Perhaps we have to wait until the show will be off air and then watch the seasons back-to-back and see that it is not that inconsistent.
Cheers, Jas
And I too read all the Sookie Stackhouse novels, but I respect the fact that the writers went on a different tangent. Same goes for "The Vampire Diaries" (actually I think they improved that one). Anyway, I hope I haven't offended anyone, but it bugs me when people start talking about cancellation of a show we all love that is not really in danger of being cancelled by the way. If the show is going a direction you dont like, then you can stop watching it.
From the "vitriolic" comments I have read elsewhere (and here at times), I have found that it mostly says much more about the people commenting than about the show itself, as it's the case with most aggressively tinted arguments. And, apparently, we differ very much oft-times.
I have so much fun watching this show (and a few others I am passionate about), why should I go and look for nuances I dislike? I don't think it's unobservant. I believe it's more a question of selective perception. And some, like you and me and some dear friends I happen to have (and, I'm sure, many many fans out there), choose to watch it as we do - with a loving eye.
However, I can see that as a whole, the story has major weaknesses, especially in S6 and so far in S7, that require a patience that many viewers may not have anymore. To return to the issue of the frames, noir and B-movie, I think that the show's need to have a frame points to an aimlessness about the overarching plot that troubles me. But I'm new to the show, fairly, and I've not had the type of up and downs that long-time viewers have with the show. There is something drastically different about watching a show as a whole versus working through it as a work in progress, which seasons 1-5 were.
As I've stated to several other viewers, I'd be interested to see the levels of satisfaction compared between long-time viewers and those newer to the show. I think that informs this discussion, to some degree. These discussions also remind me of LOST, when it ended, and the distinct reactions between those who watched for the mystery and those who watched for the characters. The ending of that show satisfied only one group, truly, and that was those watching the characters, a group of which I was a part. So I enjoyed the ending but I have many friends who were extremely unhappy. I see a similar divide here sometimes.
However, I also think that many viewers find their enjoyment in critique and I'm not opposed to that either. I personally like to see critique because, for me, it stops me from sentimentalizing stories, which I could do easily. I do think it's interesting that Jensen has articulated seeming dissatisfaction on a few occasions, or at least his comments could be interpreted that way, but I wonder if that's more a product of his reading as a fan over his role as partial creator. I'm not sure. I do know that I'm enjoying the show, quirks and all, and plan to see it's narrative play out.
(One side note: I do also think that there is something to be said for the popular belief that the show will end with Sam and Dean dying. Both actors have stated this belief on several occasions, and I'm pretty certain that they say it under the auspices of the larger idea that the show itself has revealed as the eventual resolution of their story. The absence of a future makes it difficult for some, I imagine, to see a reason for sticking it out. Of course, that's a side note and a conjecture.)
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